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I will also clarify and say that if he indeed is lying, then I won't be that surprised. I think this is more about Vaccaro whispering dollar signs into his ear than any SAT score, pass or fail. I have a pretty good gut feeling that even if he had passed, he'd still go to Europe. At this point, having a bad score is an excuse. My issue is that he just isn't a smart kid and doesn't recognize how he's being used by Vacarro and his ilk.
Agreed I think even UCLA fans realize Sonny Vaccaro is the devil. He helped UCLA get Howland and I am glad we have Howland but I detest Vaccaro. NOthing worse than having him introduce Kevin love when he signed with UCLA and I completely agree that Vaccaro is the one pushing Jennings and he pushed Mayo to do it too(for different reasons he assumed Mayo would not be cleared by the NCAA).
One thing you'll never see me do is defend Sonny Vaccaro I detest the guy.
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Sidenote boy is this stuff making the West Coast situation look bad right now.
Jennings is already going to Europe and there's now 3 other kids being rumored to looking into it and all 3 are on the West Coast.
Derozan is a senior from Compton. Sidney is a junior from Mississippi but living in LA now, and the 3rd is apparently Jordan Hamilton. I mentioned this before Hamilton's HS eligiblility is in question it appears he did the same thing Bill Walker did and reclassify after he started his HS career. The CIF has temporarily declared him out of eligiblity even though academically he just completed his junior year. he's appealed it asking for a last year of eligibility but apparently is now considering just dropping out of HS to try and play overseas.
So 4 kids in one year all considering it 2 of them juniors in highschool and they're all So Cal guys and 3 of them are originally from Compton. A cynic like me would suggest that someone in that vicinity is talking to all of them and too many of them are listening.
i think its saying he wasn't born rich. he made his life with his skills and hard work.
that aside, i think its very funny how excited all of you guys were for brandon jennings, and now that he left the dysfunctional program that is Arizona basketball, you guys think you are better off. get real.
don't lump me into that mix, i think he's a huge loss for the program. doesn't make him any less of an idiot though.
same as the fact that i root for the devils in football but think rudy is an idiot and a rat while hoping he's really not.
and yes, i root for uofa hoops and asu football. has always been the case. i didn't attend either school but grew up going to asu football games and had friends play there and was really first introduced to ncaa hoops during sean elliott's heyday, so deal with it.
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
Slow down there, turbo. At the time when we were excited about him, we had no idea he was this much of a "me-first" guy. Things change, just like opinions. Maybe you should get real.
i call bull there. this guy has ALWAYS been "me first." he never hid it. he SCREAMED it. and i was still excited about him coming b/c talent is talent.
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
Not going to happen, he's too busy jocking the greatness of NIT quarterfinal fodder such as Syracuse and ASU to get real. If Arizona is such a mess, I'm not sure what he'd call these programs who Arizona continues to outperform and outrecruit even in a down cycle?
And for all the talk about falling into an abyss, Arizona has made it into the Tourney every year since the Reagan Administration and continues to recruit at a very high level. Yeah, things are what they once were and at Lute's age expecting such is unrealistic. But to suggest Arizona is the next UNLV, Michigan, or NC State (three programs that were quickly derailed due to heavy NCAA sanctions which UA has stayed away from during Lute's tenure) shows a lack of understanding of college hoops history. I supposed you could argue that Arizona could gradually fall off a la Depaul but Lute's lack of support from the administration won't allow that to occur. Lute has too many enemies in Tucson right now that he'd get forced out before the program slid too far. Hell, it wouldn't shock me if he got let go after this upcoming season if they don't advance to the Sweet 16 and 2009 recruiting falls apart.
easy there thinskin. this program was built by lute. yes, the administration helped throughout his tenure, but to deny that this program has always been lute first and uofa second is to put on blinders. and while i realize that the administration is not interested in allowing lute to derail the entire program, they have also shown a less-than-stellar ability to select talent (see stoops and kevin oneil as successor). i am very rightly worried about the state of uofa hoops after lute leaves (hell, i'm worried about the state of uofa hoops while lute is still there and seemingly veering off his rocker).
uofa was not a choice destination before lute's introduction, and it could easily slide back after his exit. to think otherwise denies reality. this is not kentucky or indiana where the state clamors for their programs to be king. and while uofa is king in tucson, that doesn't wield enough power to demand and draw the best coaches automatically, and without the best coaches the top recruits will dry up as well.
this is gonna seem odd, but i always thought pastner would have been a good choice to groom as lute's successor. young guy. reportedly had coached numerous aau teams to aau championships. allegedly taught bibby to shoot (or something to that effect). could see him being a gym rat. don't know about his recruiting abilities or x's and o's though (and i concede those are the most important two traits for the program).
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
So it's clear my not believing Jennings comment was not meant as belittling you I genuinely hadn't considered the notion that some people might still believe him I just assumed by now most people felt he was stalling.
We're never going to get a public disclosure on his scores now I actually will predict now that in a few weeks Jennings will sign with Europe and claim he qualified. People will contact UA and they'll either decline to comment or say privacy laws prevent them from commenting on a kid who's not a student at UA.
But to be clear I don't believe Jennings and that has nothing to do with you and everything to do with Jennings.
agree with russ 100%. apparently the scores have been released for quite some time. he's got 'em. doesn't want to show he failed. uofa is prevented from disclosing 'em. end of story.
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
agree with russ 100%. apparently the scores have been released for quite some time. he's got 'em. doesn't want to show he failed. uofa is prevented from disclosing 'em. end of story.
You forgot the "IMO".
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---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
easy there thinskin. this program was built by lute. yes, the administration helped throughout his tenure, but to deny that this program has always been lute first and uofa second is to put on blinders. and while i realize that the administration is not interested in allowing lute to derail the entire program, they have also shown a less-than-stellar ability to select talent (see stoops and kevin oneil as successor). i am very rightly worried about the state of uofa hoops after lute leaves (hell, i'm worried about the state of uofa hoops while lute is still there and seemingly veering off his rocker).
Well, Jim Livengood who backed our football coaching decisions and Kevin O'Neill is gone around the same time as Stoops is which in all likelihood will be sometime around this Decmeber 7. So the guy who was responsible for those decisions will have zero say in Lute's successor so your point here is invalid. I can assure you nobody who was invlolved in the hirings of Kevin O'Neill, John Mackovic, or Mike Stoops will have a say in Lute's replacement.
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uofa was not a choice destination before lute's introduction, and it could easily slide back after his exit. to think otherwise denies reality. this is not kentucky or indiana where the state clamors for their programs to be king. and while uofa is king in tucson, that doesn't wield enough power to demand and draw the best coaches automatically, and without the best coaches the top recruits will dry up as well.
Of course it could slide back, but there's factors at work that suggest all is not doom and gloom post-Lute. Arizona will have the best basketball facilities in the Pac-10 in a couple months and until Ben Howland got his latest bump Arizona paid a higher salary for their coaching staff than any other conference school and is top 15 nationally. Their tradition also speaks for itself, no school in the Pac-10 not named UCLA can claim as much historical success. Coaches also are noticing how well the 'Cats are continuing to recruit despite all the drama which on top of the money, facilities, support, and tradition make the Arizona job even more appealing. Of course if we pull a UNLV and land in NCAA hot water many of these perks go away but until then I'd say we would be a very atttractive job which is why we have been repeatedly linked to hot names such as Jamie Dixon, pre-phone scandal Kelvin Sampson, and Mark Few. And saying UA doesn't wield the power of an Indiana or Kentucky may be true from a historical viewpoint but not a financial one. Arizona Basketball brings in just as much revenue as those schools on an annual basis so they're getting support from somewhere.
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this is gonna seem odd, but i always thought pastner would have been a good choice to groom as lute's successor. young guy. reportedly had coached numerous aau teams to aau championships. allegedly taught bibby to shoot (or something to that effect). could see him being a gym rat. don't know about his recruiting abilities or x's and o's though (and i concede those are the most important two traits for the program).
This tells me just about all we need to know about your opinion of the future of UA Hoops. Josh Pastner is a freaking joke. He won those AAU Tournaments most likely because his Dad ran them not to mention winning such an event only really means you have the superior And 1 Mix Tape squad. And over the past four or five years (you know, when Arizona has slid back to the middle of the Pac-10) Josh Pastner has been essentially running the day-to-day operations of the program while Lute has been off with that awful woman. Now I blame that solely on Lute who never should've given him control, but at the same time it spoke volumes about Pastner's ability of lack thereof to run a major college program.
Pastner is a bluetooth-wearing salesman who's good at hounding kids into committing to whatever school is cutting his check. His talent evaluation is awful and his inability to control the same players he recruited is well-documented.
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Addressing the Core by Rod Graves:
1. Re-sign Calvin Pace (Miss)
2. Negotiate Extension with Dansby (Miss #2)
3. Re-structure Fitzgerald (TBD)
Last edited by MaoTosiFanClub; July 10th, 2008 at 02:46 PM.
agree with russ 100%. apparently the scores have been released for quite some time. he's got 'em. doesn't want to show he failed. uofa is prevented from disclosing 'em. end of story.
I think he failed too, but just by listening to him in interviews and such you can tell he probably could've gotten a 700 with minimal effort. My theory is that once Vaccaro or whoever got in his ear and told him about Europe and the instant shoe/agent/miscellaneous sponsor paydays Jennings basically blew off even making an attempt to get in.
__________________
Addressing the Core by Rod Graves:
1. Re-sign Calvin Pace (Miss)
2. Negotiate Extension with Dansby (Miss #2)
3. Re-structure Fitzgerald (TBD)
Well, Jim Livengood who backed our football coaching decisions and Kevin O'Neill is gone around the same time as Stoops is which in all likelihood will be sometime around this Decmeber 7. So the guy who was responsible for those decisions will have zero say in Lute's successor so your point here is invalid. I can assure you nobody who was invlolved in the hirings of Kevin O'Neill, John Mackovic, or Mike Stoops will have a say in Lute's replacement.
you have to admit that all that means is you have NO idea who will be making those new hires then. which while perhaps being a better situation than having bad decisionmakers making the new hires, still doesn't necessarily portend for good hires. you really have NO idea what the decisionmakers' abilities will be according to your own set of facts, right?
Of course it could slide back, but there's factors at work that suggest all is not doom and gloom post-Lute. Arizona will have the best basketball facilities in the Pac-10 in a couple months and until Ben Howland got his latest bump Arizona paid a higher salary for their coaching staff than any other conference school and is top 15 nationally. Their tradition also speaks for itself, no school in the Pac-10 not named UCLA can claim as much historical success. Coaches also are noticing how well the 'Cats are continuing to recruit despite all the drama which on top of the money, facilities, support, and tradition make the Arizona job even more appealing. Of course if we pull a UNLV and land in NCAA hot water many of these perks go away but until then I'd say we would be a very atttractive job which is why we have been repeatedly linked to hot names such as Jamie Dixon, pre-phone scandal Kelvin Sampson, and Mark Few. And saying UA doesn't wield the power of an Indiana or Kentucky may be true from a historical viewpoint but not a financial one. Arizona Basketball brings in just as much revenue as those schools on an annual basis so they're getting support from somewhere.
yes, you make excellent points here. will the school and particularly the new decisionmakers, be willing to continue spending the cash though? will the state legislature? particularly for a slightly less known quantity - let's be honest, the state def has a terrific, and well earned, amount of respect for lute. he's been the premier coach in any sport, professional or college, in the state, arguably ever. would the state bend over backward to accomodate a jamie dixon or mark few? i would hope so, but we won't know until it happens.
This tells me just about all we need to know about your opinion of the future of UA Hoops. Josh Pastner is a freaking joke. He won those AAU Tournaments most likely because his Dad ran them not to mention winning such an event only really means you have the superior And 1 Mix Tape squad. And over the past four or five years (you know, when Arizona has slid back to the middle of the Pac-10) Josh Pastner has been essentially running the day-to-day operations of the program while Lute has been off with that awful woman. Now I blame that solely on Lute who never should've given him control, but at the same time it spoke volumes about Pastner's ability of lack thereof to run a major college program.
Pastner is a bluetooth-wearing salesman who's good at hounding kids into committing to whatever school is cutting his check. His talent evaluation is awful and his inability to control the same players he recruited is well-documented.
okay, i admitted that my knowledge of pastner's abilities was limited (and perhaps misguided and clouded by a few stories), sue me. all i saw was a young kid putting together talent and winning games, seemed like a good recipe for success. i figured if he picked up on all lute had to provide in terms of program management, recruiting, and x's and o's he'd be a good candidate, that's all. nothing to kill me about.
i don't understand why you're so testy with me. i'm bummed that jennings isn't coming. i've been sitting back and watching from afar for the last umpteen seasons and the last few have seemingly been riddled with early defections, malcontents, talents that failed to materialized, poor coaching decisions (o'neil), controversies (lute), missed recruits (legedu and now jennings), and subpar (from a uofa expectations perspective) seasons. i add it all up and i'm just disappointed in where i feel the program is drifting. why is that being taken as an attack?
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
I think he failed too, but just by listening to him in interviews and such you can tell he probably could've gotten a 700 with minimal effort. My theory is that once Vaccaro or whoever got in his ear and told him about Europe and the instant shoe/agent/miscellaneous sponsor paydays Jennings basically blew off even making an attempt to get in.
that's possible. i guess it's difficult to yourself into the shoes of a young man who has the ability to earn that much money without having the advantage of experience or good counsel.
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
you have to admit that all that means is you have NO idea who will be making those new hires then. which while perhaps being a better situation than having bad decisionmakers making the new hires, still doesn't necessarily portend for good hires. you really have NO idea what the decisionmakers' abilities will be according to your own set of facts, right?
Correct, but you originally stated that with Arizona's recent history of making poor hires such as Kevin O'Neill and Mike Stoops you were concerned about their next hire. I was merely pointing out the people responsible for both of those hires will under no circumstances be allowed to make the final decision on Lute's replacement. It could be someone with a keener eye for coaching hires or it could be someone who's worse. I have no clue nor does anybody. Fact remains that the blunders made by Livengood in Stoops and KO have no bearing on who the next AD will hire to replace Lute. One has nothing to do with the other.
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yes, you make excellent points here. will the school and particularly the new decisionmakers, be willing to continue spending the cash though? will the state legislature? particularly for a slightly less known quantity - let's be honest, the state def has a terrific, and well earned, amount of respect for lute. he's been the premier coach in any sport, professional or college, in the state, arguably ever. would the state bend over backward to accomodate a jamie dixon or mark few? i would hope so, but we won't know until it happens.
What the state legislature and ABOR approves or denies is pretty meaningless in hiring and paying a football or basketball coach. The coaches from ASU and UA all essentailly make the same thing in base salary dependant on their sport. The extra revenue the UA basketball program brings in provides the bulk Lute's annual salary and that comes directly from booster groups and the athletic department neither of which has to answer to the taxpayers as they are self-sufficient. There's no way UA could go to the ABOR and say we want the state to cough up $2.0 million for Lute while ASU only could pay Sendek $1 million. The money that Arizona Basketball fans bring in every year in tickets, merchandise, and donations is what allows Arizona to pay so competitvely not handouts from the state government. Just as ASU is able to pay their football coaches more than UA because they bring in more revenue.
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okay, i admitted that my knowledge of pastner's abilities was limited (and perhaps misguided and clouded by a few stories), sue me. all i saw was a young kid putting together talent and winning games, seemed like a good recipe for success. i figured if he picked up on all lute had to provide in terms of program management, recruiting, and x's and o's he'd be a good candidate, that's all. nothing to kill me about.
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i don't understand why you're so testy with me. i'm bummed that jennings isn't coming. i've been sitting back and watching from afar for the last umpteen seasons and the last few have seemingly been riddled with early defections, malcontents, talents that failed to materialized, poor coaching decisions (o'neil), controversies (lute), missed recruits (legedu and now jennings), and subpar (from a uofa expectations perspective) seasons. i add it all up and i'm just disappointed in where i feel the program is drifting. why is that being taken as an attack?
Not taking it as an attack, I'm just trying to point out things where I believe people are misinformed. I feel I have a pretty good pulse of what's going on in the program just being an alumni as well as being in Tucson once a week for work and knowing people with close connections. The Pastner thing I might have gotten too testy about, but that's years of frustration from having to be one of the few that saw through his smiley facade and realized he wasn't anything to write home about as a coach.
If you ever want to ask me something, feel free to do so via PM. Russ and I talk frequently about the state of Arizona Basketball and he'll tell you right now things are not as bad as the public perception. Of course if Kevin O'Neill was head coach things would be different and I'd be singing the same tune I sing about the football program which is the real program in Tucson that is in compete and utter disrepair.
__________________
Addressing the Core by Rod Graves:
1. Re-sign Calvin Pace (Miss)
2. Negotiate Extension with Dansby (Miss #2)
3. Re-structure Fitzgerald (TBD)
Last edited by MaoTosiFanClub; July 10th, 2008 at 03:35 PM.
If you ever want to ask me something, feel free to do so via PM. Russ and I talk frequently about the state of Arizona Basketball and he'll tell you right now things are not as bad as the public perception. Of course if Kevin O'Neill was head coach things would be different and I'd be singing the same tune I sing about the football program which is the real program in Tucson that is in compete and utter disrepair.
Agreed, while on the outside it's looked like a circus, I hear nothing but positive things about Dunlap. I think that was a very good hire and that once the negative stuff stops(and Jennings has to be the last bad news for this class) I think things will settle down.
Greg Smith was a huge get for UA and it seems like the future recruiting has stablized. Losing Jennings and Negedu will hurt without question when you lost a good chunk of a recruiting class it has repercussions later. But one thing it can do in the right program is mean you have more scholarships and more playing time to offer recruits in the next class and right now it appears that's what might happen with UA. They might wind up with Abdul Gaddy and Avery Bradley to go with Smith, they might wind up with the best 09 class in the Pac 10 because they will have more immediate PT to offer kids like Gaddy and Bradley who have made it clear they want to play right away.
So the impact may be much shorter than people expect if Dunlap turns out to be as good a coach as people are saying he is.
One point Mao made earlier that's a huge truth is that where programs like Indiana slipped mightily wasn't just a coaching change it was probation that put all sorts of restrictions on recruiting so it had a long term impact. UA won't have that issue when Lute finally retires.
even UCLA slipped because of the Brown probation they decided to hire guys with ties to UCLA over more qualified candidates and we got Farmer and Hazzard and then Harrick got us in trouble again and we got Lavin. Not having NCAA issues makes a big difference in continuity.
Correct, but you originally stated that with Arizona's recent history of making poor hires such as Kevin O'Neill and Mike Stoops you were concerned about their next hire. I was merely pointing out the people responsible for both of those hires will under no circumstances be allowed to make the final decision on Lute's replacement. It could be someone with a keener eye for coaching hires or it could be someone who's worse. I have no clue nor does anybody. Fact remains that the blunders made by Livengood in Stoops and KO have no bearing on who the next AD will hire to replace Lute. One has nothing to do with the other.
What the state legislature and ABOR approves or denies is pretty meaningless in hiring and paying a football or basketball coach. The coaches from ASU and UA all essentailly make the same thing in base salary dependant on their sport. The extra revenue the UA basketball program brings in provides the bulk Lute's annual salary and that comes directly from booster groups and the athletic department neither of which has to answer to the taxpayers as they are self-sufficient. There's no way UA could go to the ABOR and say we want the state to cough up $2.0 million for Lute while ASU only could pay Sendek $1 million. The money that Arizona Basketball fans bring in every year in tickets, merchandise, and donations is what allows Arizona to pay so competitvely not handouts from the state government. Just as ASU is able to pay their football coaches more than UA because they bring in more revenue.
Not taking it as an attack, I'm just trying to point out things where I believe people are misinformed. I feel I have a pretty good pulse of what's going on in the program just being an alumni as well as being in Tucson once a week for work and knowing people with close connections. The Pastner thing I might have gotten too testy about, but that's years of frustration from having to be one of the few that saw through his smiley facade and realized he wasn't anything to write home about as a coach.
If you ever want to ask me something, feel free to do so via PM. Russ and I talk frequently about the state of Arizona Basketball and he'll tell you right now things are not as bad as the public perception. Of course if Kevin O'Neill was head coach things would be different and I'd be singing the same tune I sing about the football program which is the real program in Tucson that is in compete and utter disrepair.
mao, i actually consider you my uofa "insider" source.
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Been clowned by the cards since 1989!
