I'm puzzled why on this board Matt Williams gets called a "lineup cancer," and an "oxymoron" as a cleanup hitter, when he leaves 4 men on base, and even has his fielding criticized. Yet on Sunday when we score only once, when Mark Grace leaves 6 men on base in 3 plate appearances (twice: 2-on 2 out, once 2nd & 3rd one out) the announcers say Gracie's "having a tough afternoon" & nothing is said on this board.
If you want to debate why I mistrust Mark Grace or whether I should be allowed to criticize such a fine fan-favorite because of my "irrational bias" against him, I'll be happy to start a separate "(OT)" (off topic) thread.
Meanwhile, it's obvious to me that Williams is the more useful player because he can play 3rd & 1st while Grace can't play 3rd.
Chad Tracy is hitting .416 & Alex Cintron is hitting .414 at Tucson. In March, (on the MLB board), I said it was unfair that Alex was sent down because Grace had a guarenteed spot, even though Cintron had a great spring. Alex is still playing hard.
This isn't an unexpected "slump" from an established star. This is how players reach the end of their careers. Here are facts (batting averages):
2001 .298
2002 .252
2003 .174
The question is what's more important, Mark Grace's ego & feelings (and his fans' ) or what's going to help the 2003 D'backs win games? It's a tough, but instructive decision about Mark Grace & the D'backs.
Great post, unc84steve - I would give Grace a bit more time to pull himself right/retire with dignity, but bringing Tracy up and using Matt in the 1B rotation is brilliant.
BTW - I take from your name that you are a Tar Heel?
You answered your own question. It is because Grace IS a fan favorite due to his dealings with fans and Williams isn't. This is as much a popularity contest as it is a baseball contest when it comes to discussing players.
I am a BIG Grace fan going back to that fact that I am a big Cubs fan and it is disappointing to me to see him hanging on and not being as productive. I wanted him to walk away after the Dbacks won the Series (knew he wouldn't)...but then again we always want our players to walk away on top.
Great post though.
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Originally posted by unc84steve I'm puzzled why on this board Matt Williams gets called a "lineup cancer," and an "oxymoron" as a cleanup hitter.
One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.
Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!
Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)
Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?
Originally posted by BC867 One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.
Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!
Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)
Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?
Ha! Classic....
BC867, you're satire is incredible. This is the funniest post I have seen in months!!
Bravo, bravo!!
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Constantly making conclusive and hyperbolic claims doesn't make you a dissident, it makes you an easily used tool.
Originally posted by BC867 One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.
Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!
Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)
Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?
Matt does great if Brenly would use him properly......
What does " Matt would do great if Brenly used him properly" mean?
It is obvious that Williams and Grace no longer have the offfensive skills that they had in their prime. Should they have retired, probably. Would the team be bettar off the guys down in Tucson? Maybe there is no telling if they would have hit MLB pitching as well as they are Triple A pitching.
Since no one except Gonzalez is pencilled in everyday it is hard to tell if anyone can contribute day in day out.
Originally posted by BC867 One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.
Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!
Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)
Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?
I think I see.
Mark Grace volunteered to be a "mentor" because he felt pressure as a Cubs rookie without such guidance. Since Grace knew there'd even be more pressure on the rookie Overbay if the "fan favorite" got off to a good start, Mark is "helping" by leaving runners on base, fielding poorly & even going 0-for-5 in LA so Lyle won that game with a HR. And now Mark is preparing us for vacating a valuable roster spot that will go to a better player.
Meanwhile "old selfish Matt Williams" plays defense beautifully, and takes sure outs with cutoff plays. He alertly takes extra bases when throws miss cut-off men so other hitters aren't blamed for double plays. He hits LH-pitchers well. Because he contributes in non-flashy ways, he's hogging a roster spot because some think winning games with "little things" do matter. But that's really "hurting us"--because it's not really about winning games (see the last question of my original post).
The real difference is that Matt has sucked for 4-5 years while playing virtually everyday, and Grace, whom does NOT play every day this year is struggling only this year?
Matt only wants to hit a homerun. He will not put his bat on the ball for a single. He's the most stubborn player I've seen play in over 25 years. How many RBI's does he have?
Rank GP R 1 2 3 HR RBI SH SF SB BB K
Williams: 568 16 7 7 1 0 1 3 0 1 0 4 11
Grace: 639 12 2 2 2 0 0 2 0 1 0 1 0
Matt's played in more games, but only has 1 more RBI than Grace while striking out 11 times. This is NOT an endorsment for Grace, he is struggling...but more why Williams should be on the bench permenently!
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Lord strike that poor boy down...
Originally posted by az240zz What does " Matt would do great if Brenly used him properly" mean?
It is obvious that Williams and Grace no longer have the offfensive skills that they had in their prime. Should they have retired, probably. Would the team be bettar off the guys down in Tucson? Maybe there is no telling if they would have hit MLB pitching as well as they are Triple A pitching.
Since no one except Gonzalez is pencilled in everyday it is hard to tell if anyone can contribute day in day out.
Az240z
Borrowing from DWKB:
Against Lefties, Williams stats:
AVG * AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K HBP SB CS GDP OBP SLG OPS
.350 9 20 5 7 1 0 1 3 2 1 0 0 0 1 .391 .550 .941
Great post unc84steve. Even though I am a huge Grace fan I do agree with you here. Because he's a fan favorite everyone seems to overlook his struggles yet Matty gets crucified every time he flies out. However, I do disagree with saying that Grace felt pressured as a rookie without guidance. He had plenty of guidance when Durham who took him in. To me itt seems like he's returning the favor to Overbay.
No matter how they're perceived by the media both guys are struggling mightily.
BC867, why are you so obsessed with trying to rip Matty?
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Originally posted by Cland He had plenty of guidance when Durham who took him in.
There's any important distinction between guidance and impeding a young players progress.
Grace is definitely playing the mentor role for 26 year old Overbay this year, like Durham did for him in 88' and unlike what Grace did for a 26 year old Durazo in 01'.
And before you start pulling out the injury card on me, Durazo spent a whopping 16 games on the DL in 01' all while Grace enjoyed the majority of unwarranted playing time.
This year Grace has stepped aside for Overbay and Lyle's at bat projections are very similar to Grace's in 1988.
And while I wasn't in favor of re-signing the man, I can swallow his limited pinch hitting role a little easier the salary of a right handed platoon third baseman who makes 10 times as much.
Originally posted by RLakin
And while I wasn't in favor of re-signing the man, I can swallow his limited pinch hitting role a little easier the salary of a right handed platoon third baseman who makes 10 times as much.
What difference does Matty's salary have to do with anything?
The contract was signed 5 years ago - get over it.
Originally posted by Dback Jon What difference does Matty's salary have to do with anything?
The contract was signed 5 years ago - get over it.
Oh, only about a 10 million dollar difference.
Baseball's best team, the Yankees, outspent the D-Backs by $29 million or roughly 30% of their payroll last season. That gap has widened even further this year. With that being said, how does it not matter that D-Backs are using 1/3 of the salary gap between baseball's best team and themselves on a player who some believe could make a valuable platoon player?
And you say that it was signed 5 years ago. So what? Does that make it any better than if were signed last year, this year, or 5 minutes ago. Of course not. Your argument is that we should be perfectly content with an overzealous contract because it was signed 5 years ago seems to imply that mediocrity at an excessive price is acceptable for the length of that deal. And to pretend that salaries don’t matter in baseball is ridiculous considering the current economical climate and it also implies that there is no distinction between someone like Curt Schilling and Mike Myers. Like Myers, Mark Grace is a role player that makes $1.75 million this year while Schilling and Williams both pull in $10 mill. Now tell me, do you really view Williams on an equal playing field w/ Schilling? If not, how can you not be outraged by his being paid the exact same. Oh, I already know. Because the contract was signed 5 years ago.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?
Quote:
Originally posted by RLakin Oh, only about a 10 million dollar difference.
Baseball's best team, the Yankees, outspent the D-Backs by $29 million or roughly 30% of their payroll last season. That gap has widened even further this year. With that being said, how does it not matter that D-Backs are using 1/3 of the salary gap between baseball's best team and themselves on a player who some believe could make a valuable platoon player?
And you say that it was signed 5 years ago. So what? Does that make it any better than if were signed last year, this year, or 5 minutes ago. Of course not. Your argument is that we should be perfectly content with an overzealous contract because it was signed 5 years ago seems to imply that mediocrity at an excessive price is acceptable for the length of that deal. And to pretend that salaries don’t matter in baseball is ridiculous considering the current economical climate and it also implies that there is no distinction between someone like Curt Schilling and Mike Myers. Like Myers, Mark Grace is a role player that makes $1.75 million this year while Schilling and Williams both pull in $10 mill. Now tell me, do you really view Williams on an equal playing field w/ Schilling? If not, how can you not be outraged by his being paid the exact same. Oh, I already know. Because the contract was signed 5 years ago.
No - the point is the contract is 5 years old, and Matt makes what the team signed him too. End of story. No point in bitching about it. All I care about is on field performance. Is Matt worth $10 million this year? No, but so what? He is hitting better than Grace, so play him when appropriate.
Why do you get your panties in such a bunch over what happened years ago??
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