dh v. no dh.

KingofCards · April 29th, 2003, 11:37 PM

I am just curious. My attempts at threads on this side go widely unappreciated, so this a ego deal. J/k

I predict a 75/25 split. I understand though that if you don't post here normally you can be ignored. I accept that. It would be as if rooting for the HOME team expanded to include football.

Ryanwb · April 29th, 2003, 11:48 PM

I don't like the DH, but I do not like the argument that people give against it. I am a purist, it was not part of the game that was played for the first 75+ years, they just threw it in there for reasons I have no clue.

The argument I hate is, "If pitchers had to stand in there and bat they wouldn't throw inside or bean other players".

That is a crock. Throwing inside is a part of the game that went away almost at the same time the DH came around. Bob Gibson throws you inside, you don't get pissed off, you say "Hey, I was crowding the plate". I hate seeing guys with 10 pounds of body armor stand right over the plate getting upset with a brush back. The pitchers need to restake their claim on the plate and the batters need to stop being babies about getting brushed back or hit with an inside pitch.

DWKB · April 30th, 2003, 07:20 AM

Are we talking personal preference or are we picking a side and arguing logisticlly for it?

I, personally, like having different rules in the different leagues. It's what I grew up on.

Logistically, I could argue that the NL needs to adjust itself and adopt the DH.

schillingfan · April 30th, 2003, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DWKB
Logistically, I could argue that the NL needs to adjust itself and adopt the DH.

Is that a sick joke, or do you have some reasoning to back it up?

DWKB · April 30th, 2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by schillingfan
Is that a sick joke, or do you have some reasoning to back it up?

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think I had some reasoning behind it. If you'd like to start another thread to discuss this I'd be more than happy to participate, but I don't want to take away from what this one is about (which I think is personal preference)

DbaxJ · April 30th, 2003, 08:11 AM

honestly, I see the DH like the ole street football game... you know.. all time QB... but instead... the pitcher dont have to bat. Coming up through the minors, HS and such, you are taught to throw, how to run bases, hit etc. Then you get up to the AAA and you dont have to hit anymore, unless your in a NL system. Then you play there for say 8 years, (AL I'm talking here) and now you get traded to an NL team.. if not for interleague play, you probably would only see a bat when your team mates use them.. now your expected to go out and be a hitter. I am getting long winded here, so let me just say, the rules should be the same in BOTH leagues, I am not a big fan of the DH, I say let the pitcher hit too... but if we are not getting rid of it, then make it the same for both leagues.

unc84steve · April 30th, 2003, 09:15 AM

I'm not sure that's right about what the rules in high school & college are? I thought the NCAA uses a DH. I don't know about high school rules. We should look this up.

DbaxJ · April 30th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Pitchers bat at the HS level, yes in the NCAA they use the DH but in Rookie-AA they still get to bat. At the AAA level, depending on whos park they are in determines whether they bat or not, similar to the interleague schedule.

unc84steve · April 30th, 2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DbaxJ
Pitchers bat at the HS level, yes in the NCAA they use the DH but in Rookie-AA they still get to bat. At the AAA level, depending on whos park they are in determines whether they bat or not, similar to the interleague schedule.

I found a counter example:
Boxscore of Class-A Lancaster Jethawks with DH

Lancaster results link

DWKB · April 30th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DbaxJ
Pitchers bat at the HS level, yes in the NCAA they use the DH but in Rookie-AA they still get to bat. At the AAA level, depending on whos park they are in determines whether they bat or not, similar to the interleague schedule.

I don't think you're quite right on this DBaxJ. The issue is not whether the pitcher hits or not as much as whether he is forced to hit. In HS a lot of times the pitcher is one of the best athletes on the team and one of the best batters by default, that does not mean a DH can't be used for a weaker offensive position. In my HS our top pitcher hit 4th and our RF'er (usually a strong offensive pos) had a DH hit for him. This happens in college a lot too with players like Darren Dreifort and Brooks Kieschnick.

In the minors, only when an NL farm club plays another NL farm club do they use the DH. If an AL farm team comes to an NL home park, they have all the right in the world to use the DH (and do) so the NL team doesn't sacrifice the advantage and choses to use the DH as well (even on their home field). Only when both teams "agree" not to use the DH do the pitchers hit.

DbaxJ · April 30th, 2003, 01:18 PM

I didnt say anything about them being FORCED to hit. Its part of the game. I have NEVER seen a little league or HS game where the guy who was the pitcher, opt out for a DH. Maybe your HS was like that, but I know mine wasnt.

An Example, the only guy from my team that went on to success... was by far.. NOT the best athelete/hitter....

ALBIE LOPEZ

As far as the NL/AL farm teams go, thats a new one by me, I had just watched a game a couple weeks ago and the Dbax coordinator of the farm teams was talking about it, and he was asked that question directly and he said they DH ONLY when they play an AL team in their park, and when they come to ours, the P has to bat.....? Whatever the case is, I think it should be the same in both leagues... I DONT prefer the DH, so the crux is, I wish they got rid of the DH.

DWKB · April 30th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DbaxJ
I didnt say anything about them being FORCED to hit. Its part of the game. I have NEVER seen a little league or HS game where the guy who was the pitcher, opt out for a DH. Maybe your HS was like that, but I know mine wasnt.

I know you didn't say anything about the pitcher being forced to hit. That is why I said it. The DH is not restricted to hit for the pitcher, the DH is used to hit for whomever you chose and sometimes that isn't the pitcher. So to say "In HS the pitchers hit" Is misleading IMO and not the same as saying "In HS there is no DH".

The NFHS (National Federation of High School Associations) rules on the DH

Quote:

Originally posted by DbaxJ

As far as the NL/AL farm teams go, thats a new one by me, I had just watched a game a couple weeks ago and the Dbax coordinator of the farm teams was talking about it, and he was asked that question directly and he said they DH ONLY when they play an AL team in their park, and when they come to ours, the P has to bat.....?

I'd like to know who this guy was, what farm team he was associated with.

Tucson Box Score

El Paso Box Score

These both contradict him it seems.

IndyDevil · April 30th, 2003, 08:45 PM

I took my son out to watch Indianapolis (AAA - Brewers) play Columbus (AAA - Yankees) last Sunday, and it was played with the DH in effect, although Indy was the home team; today I watched Indy play Louisville (AAA - Reds), and the pitchers batted. The only reason I'm mentioning this is that I assumed that the DH would go away when AL/NL games were played in a NL farm team's park, but Sunday proved me wrong.

Oh, and I'm personally against the DH - let the pitchers bat!!

unc84steve · May 1st, 2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IndyDback
I took my son out to watch Indianapolis (AAA - Brewers) play Columbus (AAA - Yankees) last Sunday, and it was played with the DH in effect, although Indy was the home team; today I watched Indy play Louisville (AAA - Reds), and the pitchers batted. The only reason I'm mentioning this is that I assumed that the DH would go away when AL/NL games were played in a NL farm team's park, but Sunday proved me wrong.

Oh, and I'm personally against the DH - let the pitchers bat!!

DWKB & I were tried to figure out the pattern of DH use in the minors because of weirdness like you described. It isn't home park "major league" rules, it's the actual league rules. Every "minor league" uses the DH, from AAA down to Rookie ball. When Columbus (AAA--Yankees) visits Indy (AAA--Brewers) they both turn in lineups. Both have the option of using a DH. Columbus wants to win the game & develop hitters for the Yankees; they will use the DH even if Indy points out that they are being rude guests. Indy then has their choice. They decide to use the DH.

When Louisville (AAA-Reds) visits the same choice applies. Both teams want to win the game. However, they both agree to "disarm" and set aside the DH option.

WARNING THREAD DETOUR/ IF NOT HI-JACK

I vaguely recall hearing a few years ago that one NL team "ordered" its minor league affiliates to have their pitchers hit. Now I understand. They were ordering its "slave" teams put the "owner" team's interest ahead of the team's interest in winning the game. Basically they would be playing 9 vs. 10 baseball.

Suppose it was Cincinnati. It sounds like an "old school" Reds thing to do (Rob Dibble, no facial hair, Charlie Hustle, Thom Brenneman and those "not a good at bat right there", etc.). Cincinnati was "enslaving" Louisville, right down the river. The Reds organization was telling the Louisville Bats "We don't care about you trying to win games. 'Our' pitchers learning to hit is more important than your puny little game." Why should Cinci have everything and Louisville nothing? Such arrogance shows why "minor league games" could be so much more than mere exhibitions, if they were "freed."

I'd be delighted to start a separate topic if interested.

Call it:

Are the minor leagues "enslaved"?

KingofCards · May 1st, 2003, 03:30 PM

75/25. I knew it!