The Bane of a Cardinals Fan's Existence: Offensive Line

RugbyMuffin · February 17th, 2012, 05:14 AM

Ok, make your case.

The offensive line situation is a tough situation. We only have two starters set in stone, IMHO. That would be Sendlein and College. Hadnot was challenged last year by Lutui, and Lutui has been the in doghouse so long I forgot he was on the team at times last year, so Hadnot is no certainty. Obviously both OT are up in the air at this point.

I sure as heck am no expert on the offensive line, and neither are any of us, thus the list of statements below is not to call out anyone's stupidity or wisdom, just a list of thoughts and options of what to do with this offensive line.

Cause lets face it. The Cardinals offensive line has been poor for an extremely long time. We have seen the Cardinals go to the Super Bowl, find pass rushers, and even find competent TE's for Pete's sake, but that offensive line still has not found a core unit to drive them.

Some statements I have heard about this offseason:

"Our interior line is fine, there is nothing we have to do to improve it"

"Levi Brown may be our best option at left tackle"

"Jared Gaither is our best prospect at left tackle"

"Levi Brown would make a good right tackle."

"Jeremy Bridges is not good enough to play either tackle position"

"Russ Grimm has the tools he needs to have a good offensive line"

"Russ Grimm is overrated, and it the main problem with our offensive line"

"Jeff Backus is worse than Levi Brown"

"Max Starks is worse than Levi Brown"

"Why don't we try Kareem McKenzie at left tackle?"

"Demetrius Bell is the best opportunity for the Cardinals to find a left tackle"

"Jonath Martin is a lock for the Cardinals at 13, and will be the BPA at that spot"

"Mike Adams is a lock for the Cardinals at 13, and will be the BPA at that spot"

"Riley Reiff is a lock for the Cardinals at 13, and will be the BPA at that spot"

"David DeCastro is going to be the BPA at #13, and is the safest pick for the Cardinals"

I will add some of my own thoughts/speculations:

The Cardinals should take a good look at King Dunlap for the right tackle position.

The Cardinals should see if Trai Essex has his weight problems under control he can be a good pick up for the Cardinals.

I really like Art Forst from Rutgers in the later rounds of the draft.

I am very high on Ryan Bartholomew, who is our "backup" center as of right now, spent all last season on the practice squad, and is an absolute BEAST of a man.

kerouac9 · February 17th, 2012, 05:52 AM

Jeff Bridges might be as good, but Jeremy Bridges is our backup tackle.

Crazy Canuck · February 17th, 2012, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

Jeff Bridges might be as good, but Jeremy Bridges is our backup tackle.

Give Jeff a break. He's 60 years old, but has moxie.

RugbyMuffin · February 17th, 2012, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

Jeff Bridges might be as good, but Jeremy Bridges is our backup tackle.

Sorry, lotta strands in ol' duder's head.

My thinking was very uptight when I posted that.

I could be sitting here with just pee stains on my carpet but I went on an posted that anyway.

But, its all water under the bridge now.

Reddog · February 17th, 2012, 06:28 AM

Rework Levi's contract and move him to RT
Pick up either Jared Gaither or Demetrius Bell for LT
Trade back and grab David DeCastro and if not available take BPA and work with the OGs you have

LT Gaither/Bell, LG College, C Sendlein, RG DeCastro, RT Brown

RugbyMuffin · February 17th, 2012, 06:35 AM

Ok, I'll bite:

Sign as Free Agents:
Backus or Starks for LT
Dunlap or Essex for RT

Draft DeCastro at 13
Draft Forst in later rounds.

LT: Backus/Starks
LG: Colledge
OC: Sendlein
RG: Hadnot
RT: Dunlap/Essex

Depht:
OT: Bridges
OG: DeCastro & Forst (52nd spot or PS)
OC: Bartholomew

I think that would be a solid line for the Cardinals in 2012.

Starks and Backus are not as bad on paper as many seem to dictate, and when keeping in mind that they are an upgrade from Levi Brown who seems to be one of the worst LT in the league.

Keith has been a dissapointment, and I know Dunlap would be an upgrade, and Essex seems to hold his own when he is playing, and again would be an upgrade to Keith.

JeffGollin · February 17th, 2012, 06:41 AM

Good job.

Backing up one stage, I believe our OL needs to improve in the following areas:

1. Handing-off and picking up assignments when dealing with stunts, twists and blitzes.

2. More consistency creating room for RB's to pick up positive yardage (including not allowing defenders to blow through the gap to stop plays in the backfield and picking up "back-door" pursuit).

3. A road-grader component at the LOS when we want to blow a defender 10-15 yards into the secondary.

4. Consistency converting 3rd or 4th & 1.

5. Matching up better in tackle vs. edge-rusher battles (i.e. quicker feet, stronger, better balance).

What we need to ask ourselves is: "What changes are needed to accomplish the above 5 objectives?" Based on that, I'm inclined to go along with the "Keep Sendlein and Colledge" strategy; but that would still mean replacing 6 guys to properly re-tool the offensive line (both starters and backups).

That's a tough challenge - maybe too daunting to do in one year - but you have to start somewhere. As to which FA's to sign or rookies to draft, I'm not sure about any of the FA's. In the Draft, I know I like DeCastro, but would want to delve more into Martin, Kalil, Adams, Reiff, Bell, the center from Wisc. and others before setting up a position or BPA draft board.

A good goal for 2012 might be to sign 2 FA offensive linemen and draft 3 more(including at least one on the first day), throw in a couple of UDFA's and hope we can wind up adding at least 4 (hopefully more) guys who, together, will make a significant immediate impact on our O-line play.

Waysouth · February 17th, 2012, 06:47 AM

I agree with what Red Dog is selling. Give me Manning and a (verticle) receiver that can take some pressure off Fitz and we would be surprised how much the line would improve.

Duckjake · February 17th, 2012, 06:57 AM

I think the Cards should just look for a LT and leave the rest of the line alone. Look at Jeff's post. Most of those problems are scheme issues, especially the most glaring the last few seasons, blown assignments leaving unblocked defenders and running plays being blown up from the back side.

The only reason I think they need a LT is that Brown is going to get offered more money from another team and be gone by March 21st.

Leave the line intact as much as possible. After all they had 2 new members and no off season. I think that with a year together and a full off season they really will "get it". These aren't players with only a handful of starts in 4 years in the NFL like some other player who shall remain nameless. They are players, with the exception of Keith, with 70,80,90 games starting in the NFL. Even our rotational lineman Jeremy "Crazy Heart" Bridges has started 55 games.

52brandon · February 17th, 2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RugbyMuffin

Ok, I'll bite:

Sign as Free Agents:
Backus or Starks for LT
Dunlap or Essex for RT

Draft DeCastro at 13
Draft Forst in later rounds.

LT: Backus/Starks
LG: Colledge
OC: Sendlein
RG: Hadnot
RT: Dunlap/Essex

Depht:
OT: Bridges
OG: DeCastro & Forst (52nd spot or PS)
OC: Bartholomew

I think that would be a solid line for the Cardinals in 2012.

Starks and Backus are not as bad on paper as many seem to dictate, and when keeping in mind that they are an upgrade from Levi Brown who seems to be one of the worst LT in the league.

Keith has been a dissapointment, and I know Dunlap would be an upgrade, and Essex seems to hold his own when he is playing, and again would be an upgrade to Keith.

THE worst

RugbyMuffin · February 17th, 2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckjake

I think the Cards should just look for a LT and leave the rest of the line alone. Look at Jeff's post. Most of those problems are scheme issues, especially the most glaring the last few seasons, blown assignments leaving unblocked defenders and running plays being blown up from the back side.

The only reason I think they need a LT is that Brown is going to get offered more money from another team and be gone by March 21st.

Leave the line intact as much as possible. After all they had 2 new members and no off season. I think that with a year together and a full off season they'll "get it".

Two counter points:

1. Agreed, and I like Jeff's post, but one of the things he notes, and the Cardinals, through personel decisions seem to echo this fact, is the need for a "road-grader". Look at some of the players they have tried to get in that RG position in Herman Johnson, Deuce Lutui, they wanted Kendrick Vincet at one point. They picked up Chris Stewart (6'5", 351lbs) at the beginning of this offseason. Thus the situation at the RG position. That RG position I belive will be dealt with via the draft, and Hadnot will start out the year in that position and hopefully the rookie will over take the spot before the year is out.

2. I will not buy into the continuity situation. I would like to see some talent show up before we play that card. Are we really going to sit here and say that Levi Brown and Brandon Keith would get better if they just played with the same players for 3+ years? I am not. If your talent and skills are not adequate, all the continuity in the world is not going to make up for it.

I believe that most teams have a core, 2 or 3 players on the line that hold together the continuity. Thinking you will have the same 5 players on a line for more than 2 years tops is not realitistic.

Now going back to the core, the Cardinals don't have one, and haven't had one is a very, very, very long time. Thus if DeCastro is as good as they say he is, he is the pick at 13. Find another 2 players that consist of the core of that line, and keep those 3 players together (if the other two have NFL talent) for as long as you can.

RugbyMuffin · February 17th, 2012, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 52brandon

THE worst

Agreed.

But so many on this board will not make the move to replace him, unless it is with an All-Pro talent. As if it seems the only acceptable options are to have the worse LT in the league or one of the best, and nothing in betwen those two choices are acceptable.

What if Gaither is signed by the Chargers or tagged, and Bell is signed/tagged by the Bills.

If not Levi Brown than, who ?

Chopper0080 · February 17th, 2012, 07:27 AM

Here is my idealistic scenario

FA
Sign Carl Nicks to play LG
Sign Jeff Backus to play LT

Draft
Draft David DeCatro in 1st round to play RG
Draft Andrew Datko(OT Fla St.) in the 4th round
Draft Derek Dennis (OG Temple) in the 6th round
Draft Joe Long (OT Wayne St, bro of Jake Long)

Move
Move Darryn Colledge to RT (He played LT in GB albeit poorly)

Starting Unit...
LT-Jeff Backus (dependable/limited vet)
LG-Carl Nicks (pro bowler)
C-Lyle Sendlein (ok)
RG-David DeCastro (potential pro bowler)
RT-Darryn Colledge (might play better at RT than LT where he was poor in GB)

Hadnot backs up C/RG

Derek Dennis gives us more youth to develop inside

Datko has LT skills (and 2nd round ability) but is coming off injury. Can let him heal behind reliable (and limited) vet in Backus.

Joe Long has bloodlines and RT size/ability. Will be a hard worker, and can develop behind Colledge who will struggle.

This unit now is young and talented inside, and has two young OT's to develop outside behind reliable vets. Not perfect, but the best I can build in this offseason for long term success.

Duckjake · February 17th, 2012, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RugbyMuffin

Two counter points:

1. Agreed, and I like Jeff's post, but one of the things he notes, and the Cardinals, through personel decisions seem to echo this fact, is the need for a "road-grader". Look at some of the players they have tried to get in that RG position in Herman Johnson, Deuce Lutui, they wanted Kendrick Vincet at one point. They picked up Chris Stewart (6'5", 351lbs) at the beginning of this offseason. Thus the situation at the RG position. That RG position I belive will be dealt with via the draft, and Hadnot will start out the year in that position and hopefully the rookie will over take the spot before the year is out.

2. I will not buy into the continuity situation. I would like to see some talent show up before we play that card. Are we really going to sit here and say that Levi Brown and Brandon Keith would get better if they just played with the same players for 3+ years? I am not. If your talent and skills are not adequate, all the continuity in the world is not going to make up for it.

I believe that most teams have a core, 2 or 3 players on the line that hold together the continuity. Thinking you will have the same 5 players on a line for more than 2 years tops is not realitistic.

Now going back to the core, the Cardinals don't have one, and haven't had one is a very, very, very long time. Thus if DeCastro is as good as they say he is, he is the pick at 13. Find another 2 players that consist of the core of that line, and keep those 3 players together (if the other two have NFL talent) for as long as you can.

I certainly see your point but I just don't buy that the Cards don't have the talent. These guys have been starters in the NFL too long to be the bums so many seem to think they are.

In 2004 the Cards had 3 first round draft picks on their offensive line. They finished 27th in total offense. It was their first year playing together

The only time in the last 25 years the Cards have had basically the same guys play together for any length of time was late 2007-2009. A period of prolific offense for Arizona. If you go look at other teams core offensive linemen more often than not you will see guys who have been on that line for years.

Here are most of the linemen for one of the top offenses in the NFL the last two years, the Saints:

Bushrod 4th round pick Saints 2007
Evans 4th round pick Saints 2006
Nicks 5th round pick Saints 2008
Strief 7th round pick Saints 2006
Del Puente UDFA
CBrown UDFA
Goodwin 5th round pick Jets 2002
Stinchcomb 2nd round pick Saints 2003

Two 4ths, a 5th a 7th and an UDFA and they won the 2011 Max Protector award.

However, I can live with two new Tackles as long as Colledge,Sendlein,and Hadnot or Lutui man the middle.

Catfish · February 17th, 2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckjake

I certainly see your point but I just don't buy that the Cards don't have the talent. These guys have been starters in the NFL too long to be the bums so many seem to think they are.

The only time in the last 25 years the Cards have had basically the same guys play together for any length of time was late 2007-2009. A period of prolific offense for Arizona. If you go look at other teams core offensive linemen more often than not you will see guys who have been on that line for years.

However, I can live with two new Tackles as long as Colledge,Sendlein,and Hadnot or Lutui man the middle.

Good thoughts DJ-----What I recall most about this period is that (when we chose to run), we could run over the right side of our line almost any time, and Lutui was the RG. He played with a mean streak, and was the ONLY O-lineman for the Cards who did so. He frequently got to the second level, and not only got there, but was devastating when he got there. Yet in all this, he was sufficient in pass protection, (try to recall when you heard that a pass protect breakdown was the fault of our RG during that time). It just didn't happen.

I know Deuce got into Whiz' doghouse over weight issues. I sometimes wonder if he isn't just as hard headed as Whiz is, and simply thought that he would watch his weight if and when Whiz could field someone who did it better that Deuce did it. This seems to bear some weight, (no pun intended), when you see that Deuce, despite all his time of in the doghouse, was still the best option at the end of last year when he stepped in for a failing Hadnot, and was simply the best we had on the field.

Additionally, Deuce claims that he gets it now about the weight thing. I don't know if that is true or not, or even whether it matters or not, (aside from keeping him in Whiz' dog house), but I think we owe it to ourselves to see if Deuce is sincere about this. He is, (after all), the local kid who always wanted to play for the Cardinals, AND he is the ONE offensive lineman who did it well, whether he was overweight or not. While he might have been able to challenge Whiz by playing overweight in his youth, he must realize that as he ages, that extra weight is a huge detriment to him. In any event, I would like to see what shape he is in before I set about to replace him. IF he has finally seen the light about the weight issue, then I would be very reluctant to replace the one man who has been the most successful on this line year in and year out, despite the doghouse issues.

Personally, I find it strange that Whiz chose to sit him over the weight issue, despite the fact that Deuce's play was never the issue. The weight thing seemed to be an artificial hurdle that Whiz chose for Deuce to overcome, and not an issue with his actual performance. That seemed to me to be like Whiz stubbornly sticking to starting Bryan Robinson at the nose tackle position, despite the fact that Robinson's actual performance showed that he was not capable of doing so. That was also mirrored with Whiz starting Joey Porter at the rush OLB slot, despite Porter's inability to produce anything even close to starting ability.

To me, Lutui seems to be living his dream, (playing for the Cards), and he has done it better than anyone else during his tenure. That should mean something, and IF he truly understands the need to keep the weight down now, it would seem a sad waste not to at least let him compete for that starting RG slot. After all, the ONLY thing that kept him out of the lineup was the HC, who CHOSE to sit him, if for nothing else than to teach him a lesson.

Like Duck Jake, I too would opt to try to work at replacing our tackles, (where real need has been shown for years), than to mess with continuity that has proven to work on the interior line. I would seek to get a free agent to start on the left side at tackle, then would draft one of the three OT's who are at the top of the list if one falls to us. If not there when we pick, then I would opt to trade back a few spaces, (adding an additional pick), and try for Mike Adams at about the 18-20 slot in round one. I would also opt to return D'Anthony Batiste, and maybe even Bryan Keith to compete for the tackle slots. It might just be possible that one of those two is ready to make the jump to starting in this league.