Both Greg Cosell & Ken Whis agree on decrease in importance of OTs - Page 4

Chris_Sanders · April 25th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

I have yet to be convinced by anyone that this is, in fact, the truth. He might know marginally more about football than really deep, knowledgeable fans, but not orders of magnitude more.

IMO what separates professional football people from the high-knowledge fan is that professional football people are able to work for free for three or four years and have the initial connections to get into the League (either professional or familial).

You honestly believe that he only marginally knows more than fans? Wow...this explains a lot.

Duckjake · April 25th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

Maybe you should read my argument again:

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. If you're saying that John Skelton looked good, I have tons of evidence to offer to the contrary. If you're saying that Fitz had good numbers while playing with three sub-average quarterbacks, I completely agree with you. I think that if Fitz was playing with a league-average quarterback last year, he would've eclipsed 2000 yards (I've said this before elsewhere on the board).

Yes, Fitz looks special with inferior talent because he's a special player. Special players are special even when surrounded by garbage. Fitz got his numbers because the offense became designed to feed Fitz the ball over and over again. Fitz was by far on top of the NFL in terms of WR targets last year.

If you want to tell me that Skelton was good because he went 5-2 (or whatever) while being bailed out by two or three game-winning punt returns by Patrick Peterson--well, I don't know what to tell you. I like Double Deuce, and I think he has the brightest future of any quarterback on the roster right now, but he did not play like a good quarterback last season.

Peterson only had one punt return for a TD in games where Skelton played. The Cards won those late games because the offense made big plays at the end. I don't care how good our QB looks as long as he wins. And that's Double Duece. A winner.

RugbyMuffin · April 25th, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamcastrocks

...but why is there a need for a pass rusher then? The OT's are designed to stop the pass rusher from getting there in the 5 and 7 step drops to disrupt the timing.....

If there is less importance in OT's, you would think there should be less importance in pass rushing LB's too, but that isn't the case.

Not fully buying this line of logic.

Me neither.

Sounds to me like a coach trying to justify the lack of talent at a position of need.

RugbyMuffin · April 25th, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckjake

Peterson only had one punt return for a TD in games where Skelton played. The first Rams game. The Cards won those late games because the offense made big plays at the end. I don't care how good our QB looks as long as he wins. And that's Double Duece. A winner.

+1.

Haters are going to hate Duck. That is what they do.

But in fairness K9 is right about Double Deuce last season, "he did not play like a good quarterback last season". He has to improve in order to be a "acceptable" (lack of a better word) QB

82CardsGrad · April 25th, 2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckjake

Peterson only had one punt return for a TD in games where Skelton played. The Cards won those late games because the offense made big plays at the end. I don't care how good our QB looks as long as he wins. And that's Double Duece. A winner.

This...

Buckybird · April 25th, 2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RugbyMuffin

+1.

Haters are going to hate Duck. That is what they do.

But in fairness K9 is right about Double Deuce last season, "he did not play like a good quarterback last season". He has to improve in order to be a "acceptable" (lack of a better word) QB

Totally agree Skelton could have easily thrown 20 picks last year. And his fav WR targets in 1st halves are the beer vendors in the stands

kerouac9 · April 25th, 2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Sanders

You honestly believe that he only marginally knows more than fans? Wow...this explains a lot.

If this is how you choose to read these two sentences, then I don't know what to tell you:

Quote:

I have yet to be convinced by anyone that this is, in fact, the truth. He might know marginally more about football than really deep, knowledgeable fans, but not orders of magnitude more.

Read them carefully. Maybe twice. And then I can talk more if you'd like to hear it. But don't put words in my mouth. You know that adjectives modify the nouns that follow them right?

kerouac9 · April 25th, 2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckjake

Peterson only had one punt return for a TD in games where Skelton played. The Cards won those late games because the offense made big plays at the end. I don't care how good our QB looks as long as he wins. And that's Double Duece. A winner.

Why are you replying to me on this? You're not responding to anything that I'm writing. Go quote someone else if this is the point you're trying to make.

Being a winner and being a bad quarterback are not mutually exclusive categories. I'm the guy that was arguing earlier in the year that Mark Sanchez was a Top 10 quarterback.

Duckjake · April 25th, 2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckybird

Totally agree Skelton could have easily thrown 20 picks last year. And his fav WR targets in 1st halves are the beer vendors in the stands

I disagree. Half his picks last season bounced off the hands of the Receivers.

But it's all irrelevant as long as we have the Alien, Larry Fitzgerald. He made great plays to set up the winning score in at least half our wins last season.

Just think without Fitz the Cards would have been 4-12 last season. Now who was saying we paid him too much money?

Chopper0080 · April 25th, 2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

I have yet to be convinced by anyone that this is, in fact, the truth. He might know marginally more about football than really deep, knowledgeable fans, but not orders of magnitude more.

IMO what separates professional football people from the high-knowledge fan is that professional football people are able to work for free for three or four years and have the initial connections to get into the League (either professional or familial).

I would disagree in terms of coaches, because unless you have played football at the highest of levels, you don't have an understanding of what teams do, the gameplans they construct, and the adjustments they make on the fly.

As far as front office personnel, I believe you are right on. Most GMs are business people first and then become acclimated with NFL as they work through the ranks. This is why the best GMs generally rely on their scouts and coaches to evaluate players, and then they make their best judgement from an organizational standpoint.

Duckjake · April 25th, 2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

Why are you replying to me on this? You're not responding to anything that I'm writing. Go quote someone else if this is the point you're trying to make.

Being a winner and being a bad quarterback are not mutually exclusive categories. I'm the guy that was arguing earlier in the year that Mark Sanchez was a Top 10 quarterback.

Oh you didn't write this?

Quote:

while being bailed out by two or three game-winning punt returns by Patrick Peterson--well, I don't know what to tell you.

Must be some other Kerouac9 posting on this board.

Sorry.

kerouac9 · April 25th, 2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper0080

I would disagree in terms of coaches, because unless you have played football at the highest of levels, you don't have an understanding of what teams do, the gameplans they construct, and the adjustments they make on the fly.

As far as front office personnel, I believe you are right on. Most GMs are business people first and then become acclimated with NFL as they work through the ranks. This is why the best GMs generally rely on their scouts and coaches to evaluate players, and then they make their best judgement from an organizational standpoint.

Really? Do you think that Cardinals Offensive Quality Control Coach Chad Grimm has "played football at the highest of levels"? Do you think that new Outside Linebackers Coach Ryan Slowik (son of Washington Redskins DBs coach Bob Slowik) has some special understanding of "what teams do"?

I've read a lot about football and attended a few coaching conferences over the years (they're actually really interesting and useful if you have $150 bucks and a spare weekend lying around--they're usually in late spring). I've heard Wade Phillips talk about the 3-4 defense and Walt Harris talk about offensive game planning.

There's no real alchemy that goes on. Yes, coaches have to adapt to a new language that indicates what's going on in a play, but the fundamentals of football are the same. You hear the same stuff from high school position coaches as you do from the sidelines in Flagstaff during camp.

The "genius" of football coaches is just overrated, especially at the NFL level where things have become increasingly homogenized. There's very little that separates the level of knowledge overall from a smart poster like duckjake who's been watching football in college and the NFL for decades than a quality control coach for a pro team.

Duckjake · April 25th, 2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

The "genius" of football coaches is just overrated, especially at the NFL level

Couldn't agree more. This isn't 1972 when the only information you could get was maybe a week old newspaper in your public library. We can watch HD video replays in slo motion. We can read numerous articles on football just by doing a google search. We have access to written play by play of every game for the last 5 years. There is a network on 24/7 devoted to nothing but the NFL.

Heck I can ask a question about scheme or some obscure college player here on ASFN and guys like Chopper and K9 and will be back with an intelligent response in no time.

A friend walked in with some old Cigarrette Cards. It took me less than 10 minutes to find out about how much they were worth. Cigarrette Cards! Think what you can do with football.

Cardinals.Ken · April 25th, 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerouac9

I've read a lot about football and attended a few coaching conferences over the years...

And I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons, and not learn a little something about courage.

Duckjake · April 25th, 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinals.Ken

And I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons, and not learn a little something about courage.

And I didn't spend all those years drinking beer and not learn something about falling down.