Welcome to ASFN Fan Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
My initial thought is that she is probably the strongest pick for McCain. The reasons for her strength as a VP mostly lie in the fact that she has HARDCORE appeal to the modern GOP base. You can run through the laundry list: Social conservatism, Christian, NRA, outdoorsman, pro-life at any expense, anti-environmentalism, pro-unchecked-Capitalism and true fiscal conservatism. She's a veritable poster girl for RW ideals as well as having a digestible "Americana" feel to her story. On top of that, she is very attractive. I hate that I notice that about her when looks have nothing to do with it, but it is what it is and it is something anyone will notice. Basically, she's a walking press release.
As a snapshot, she IS in fact what McCain needs. However, as you learn about her, the negatives reveal themselves. She doesn't know what a VP is supposed to do. She doesn't know what's going on in Iraq and she is reticent to discuss it anyways because her son is going soon. She is already pre-packaged with an ongoing scandal in a state that is rife with corruption. She has not a lick of foreign policy experience and it remains to be seen what she brings in terms of economics to the economically-inept McCain. She has all but endorsed Obama's energy plan (http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us) which serves to undercut McCain's recent trite critcisms of it.
Now, you have to ask what McCain was thinking. After vetting her, he had to know all the negatives and perceived negatives on her and there are some pretty heavy ones. I think it is clear that this is a politically expedient pick. It wasn't a week ago that the RWers were claiming Obama would make a purely political pick, yet lo and behold, it's McCain who does it!
If he is counting on the so-called disaffected Hillary supporters, he is more than likely severely overestimating the effect of that group. First of all, this would assume that women are a monolithic block incapable of political sophistication. It is very patronizing to think that women will flock in droves to vote this way simply because there is a woman on the ticket.
Besides, this is a man that jokes about a gorilla raping a woman, Chelsea Clinton being the byproduct of a lesbian relationship between her mom and Janet Reno, calls his wife a trollop and a c#nt, laughs about Hillary being referred to as a b#tch, womanized and abandoned his first wife. This guy has no respect for women, yet women voters are supposed to flock to him because he put a woman on the ticket with him? Get real.
There is only ONE forseeable way that this works for McCain: Biden looks like a bully in the VP debate. We all know Biden is a lion. We know he is locquacious and we know he doesn't pull punches. By all accounts, Palin is a tough woman herself, but perception is reality and this could prove to be a sweaty Nixon moment for the Obama camp. I don't think it's even debateable that the VP debate is even a fair event at this point. It is absolutely Biden's to lose, but he'll have to rein himself in to win. He can win without appearing overly aggressive, but it could prove to be a tough balance.
What Palin will need to do is hope like hell she can stand up not only to due scrutiny on such a large scale, but also the absurdity. She also better toughen her skin on Iraq and be able to explain what she will do in her responsibilities as a VP. She also better hope her husband's closet is clear. If she doesn't gaffe or clam up under the big tent, she could prove to be McCain's best choice.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
Mr. McCain’s advisers said Friday that Mr. McCain was well aware that Ms. Palin would be criticized for her lack of foreign policy experience, but that he viewed her as exceptionally talented and intelligent and that he felt she would be able to be educated quickly.
“She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,” said Charlie Black, one of Mr. McCain’s top advisers, making light of concerns about Mr. McCain’s health, which Mr. McCain’s doctors reported as excellent in May.
She may not be an environmentalist, and balances her states economy over environmental issues, but she isn't the rabid anti-environmentalist she's going to get painted as because of her stance on ANWAR and labelling bears as endangered.
Quote:
On September 14, 2007, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin signed Administrative Order 238, establishing the Climate Change Sub-Cabinet. The sub-cabinet will consolidate the state's knowledge of climate change in order to recommend policies and measures to guide the state's mitigation and adaptation efforts. It includes the commissioners of the Departments of Commerce, Community and Economic Development; Natural Resources; Fish and Game; Transportation and Public Facilities; and Environmental Conservation (Chair). The Administrative Order also directs the group to consult with the president of the University of Alaska and explore ways to promote development of renewable energy sources such as geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, and tidal resources. Governor also signed a letter adding Alaska as an observer to the Western Climate Initiative.
Like McCain, Obama and Biden, she's got some issues. They are going to be front and center in the next few months, but eventually her warts will be put in the background and her personality will be what is sold. You don't hear about Obama's Cook County politics and potential shady deals, McCain and the Keating mess, Biden and the plagarism. That's the way it goes. It will come down to party bases (where Palin plays well) and likeability. Palin is likeable. Obama is likeable. Joe is a firebrand badass. McCain is wooden. It's going to be interesting, no doubt.
__________________
I'm the anti-TNT. I don't do drama.
It wasn't a week ago that the RWers were claiming Obama would make a purely political pick, yet lo and behold, it's McCain who does it!
So McCain's pick is purely political and Obama's isn't? The fact that Obama is so short on international expertise didn't even factor into it? The fact that Obama has only 2 years experience on the national level and is considered one of the main impediments to his taking a commanding lead in the polls didn't even factor into it? The fact that a 35 year veteran of DC could give him instant credibility in both arenas didn't even figure into it?
__________________
“So I became a newspaperman. I hated to do it but I couldn’t find honest employment.” —Mark Twain
Well, 40, a good many people do feel that Biden is actually the right guy for the job, myself included. That is why is mentioned my shortlist on the Biden thread linked in the original post. Biden is not some flash-in-the-pan that Obama latched onto to capture a state's Electoral votes. Biden is not some incompetent rube. I wanted Obama at the head of the ticket all the way back in November 2006 (when I first emailed him imploring him to run). Beyond that, Clark, Biden and Gore were always on my shortlist from that point. So, to call that political is absurd....
VP Picks: Karl Rove Swings and Misses Big Time
By: SilentPatriot on Friday, August 29th, 2008 at 7:10 PM - PDT
On August 10, Karl Rove went on “Face The Nation” to argue that Senator Obama would make an “intensely political choice” for Vice President without regard for the “responsibilities of president.” At the time, Rove believed Obama would choose Tim Kaine, and argued against him by saying this:
Quote:
With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he’s been a governor for three years, he’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that he’s done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?
As we now know, Barack Obama chose Joe Biden as his VP, probably the least political choice he could have made, and probably the best governing choice he could have made. John McCain, on the other hand, is the one who made the “intensely political choice” by choosing Sara Palin — a political newcomer and self-described “hockey mom” who has less than two years of governing experience and ZERO foreign policy experience — all because the political winds dictated that “change” was going to trump “experience” this election.
Rove argues that Kaine’s mayorship of Richmond (pop. 200,000+) is insignificant and that his 3 years as Governor of Virginia (pop. 7,712,091, GDP $383 million) has been “indistinguisahable.” If Rove was intellectually consistent, wouldn’t that mean Palin’s mayorship of Wasilla (pop. 8,000+) and 20 months as Alaska governor (pop. 683,478, GDP $44.5 million) makes her even less qualified than Kaine?
Barack Obama chose Joe Biden because he knows his way around Washington and knows how to get stuff done. His selection mollifies virtually no voting block or constituency.
McCain, on the other hand, chose someone eminently unqualified for the job (seriously, can you see Sara Palin sitting down with Maliki or Karzai or any other world leader?) for the sole reason of appeasing the right-wing lunatic fringe and hoping to pick off a few die-hard Hillary holdouts, as well as assuaging voters’ concerns about his septuagenarianism.
So, Karl, who made the “intensely political choice”?
What can we take away from this episode? When Karl Rove suggests something — in this case, Obama would make an “intensely political decision” — always assume the opposite will happen. Remember, Rove predicted, according to “the math,” that the GOP would pick up seats in 2006.They of course were swept out of power in an historic landslide.
Remind me again why the punditocracy heralds this guys as some sort of political genius?
Full transcript below the fold:
Quote:
SCHIEFFER: You have said yourself in the past that Obama probably should pick a red state governor, somebody just like Tim Kaine that we just heard just a minute ago from Virginia. Governor Kaine seems to think that Democrats really can carry Virginia this time. Do you think that state’s going to be in play?
Mr. ROVE: Yeah. I think it’s going to be in play, but let me clarify. I didn’t say that I thought he ought to, I said that I thought he probably would pick a red state Democrat, because I think he’s going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice. He’s going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he’s going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He’s not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president.
With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he’s been a governor for three years, he’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that he’s done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States? What I’m concerned about is, can he bring me the electoral votes of the state of Virginia, the 13 electoral votes in Virginia?’
Rove Flips On Qualifications For Vice Presidency, Says Palin Is Qualified For Same Reason Kaine Was Not
Earlier this month, Karl Rove repeatedly argued that Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine (D) would not be “capable” of being Vice President. He complained that “he’s been a governor for three years” and said Kaine was mayor of only the “the 105th largest city in America,” referring to Kaine’s tenure as mayor of Richmond, VA. “It’s not a big town,” he quipped.
Yesterday, however, Rove argued just the opposite with regard to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R). He explained on Fox News that Palin was a good choice as McCain’s vice presidential nominee because she was “mayor of the second largest city in Alaska”:
[b]ROVE: She’s a populist, she’s an economic and a social conservative, she’s a reformer, she took on the incumbent governor of the state Frank Murkowski — Republican — beat him in the primary, won an upset in the general election. She’s a former mayor. She’s the mayor of, I think, the second largest city in Alaska before she ran for governor.
Kaine was indeed mayor of the ‘the 105th largest city in America.’ While there, he governed nearly 200,000 people and managed a bureaucracy of over 8,000 employees. By contrast, Palin was mayor of Wasilla, AK, a town of just over 8,000 people that currently employs just over 100 individuals and — contrary to Rove’s claim — didn’t even make it into the 10 largest cities in AK while she was mayor.
My initial thought is that she is probably the strongest pick for McCain. The reasons for her strength as a VP mostly lie in the fact that she has HARDCORE appeal to the modern GOP base. You can run through the laundry list: Social conservatism, Christian, NRA, outdoorsman, pro-life at any expense, anti-environmentalism, pro-unchecked-Capitalism and true fiscal conservatism. She's a veritable poster girl for RW ideals as well as having a digestible "Americana" feel to her story. On top of that, she is very attractive. I hate that I notice that about her when looks have nothing to do with it, but it is what it is and it is something anyone will notice. Basically, she's a walking press release.
As a snapshot, she IS in fact what McCain needs. However, as you learn about her, the negatives reveal themselves. She doesn't know what a VP is supposed to do. She doesn't know what's going on in Iraq and she is reticent to discuss it anyways because her son is going soon. She is already pre-packaged with an ongoing scandal in a state that is rife with corruption. She has not a lick of foreign policy experience and it remains to be seen what she brings in terms of economics to the economically-inept McCain. She has all but endorsed Obama's energy plan (http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us) which serves to undercut McCain's recent trite critcisms of it.
Now, you have to ask what McCain was thinking. After vetting her, he had to know all the negatives and perceived negatives on her and there are some pretty heavy ones. I think it is clear that this is a politically expedient pick. It wasn't a week ago that the RWers were claiming Obama would make a purely political pick, yet lo and behold, it's McCain who does it!
If he is counting on the so-called disaffected Hillary supporters, he is more than likely severely overestimating the effect of that group. First of all, this would assume that women are a monolithic block incapable of political sophistication. It is very patronizing to think that women will flock in droves to vote this way simply because there is a woman on the ticket.
Besides, this is a man that jokes about a gorilla raping a woman, Chelsea Clinton being the byproduct of a lesbian relationship between her mom and Janet Reno, calls his wife a trollop and a c#nt, laughs about Hillary being referred to as a b#tch, womanized and abandoned his first wife. This guy has no respect for women, yet women voters are supposed to flock to him because he put a woman on the ticket with him? Get real.
There is only ONE forseeable way that this works for McCain: Biden looks like a bully in the VP debate. We all know Biden is a lion. We know he is locquacious and we know he doesn't pull punches. By all accounts, Palin is a tough woman herself, but perception is reality and this could prove to be a sweaty Nixon moment for the Obama camp. I don't think it's even debateable that the VP debate is even a fair event at this point. It is absolutely Biden's to lose, but he'll have to rein himself in to win. He can win without appearing overly aggressive, but it could prove to be a tough balance.
What Palin will need to do is hope like hell she can stand up not only to due scrutiny on such a large scale, but also the absurdity. She also better toughen her skin on Iraq and be able to explain what she will do in her responsibilities as a VP. She also better hope her husband's closet is clear. If she doesn't gaffe or clam up under the big tent, she could prove to be McCain's best choice.
Divide Et Impera, you make a good argument about Palin but the facts are not 100% accurate.
Palin's comments about not knowing what the VP duties are is a perfect sound bite for a political ad...even though it would not be what she meant when she said it. Plus, The VP position until recently, was just playing robin to Batman. It was only after Clinton & baby George Bush took over that the VP took on more responsibility. It was only then that the VP position had any clout or significance in an election.
Her "scandal"? I wouldn't call it a scandal as much as i would call it an investigation. The corruption? She came into office taking on that corruption...in her own party.
Her foreign policy experience? Well, you can make the case that her record might be lacking in that department but you also have to take into account that as a VP, that isn't the job for the expert. Look at Cheney, he had ALL the expertise in that department and where did that get us? One can make the case that Biden has just as much expertise as Cheney. Oh, and Biden also voted to go into Iraq... and defended his decision and Cheney.
Did you know Cheney was against going into Iraq during Desert storm while holding the Sec of Defense position? He is on record in a C-Span interview giving all the reason's why we didn't go in. What happened why he became VP? He went against everything he said in that interview... look where that got us?
Don't get me wrong, having knowledge on foreign policy is great but lets leave the "expertise" to the Sec of Defense & State.
Another side note:
Do you see the similarities in Cheney & Biden? Both Prez candidates picked more experienced foreign policy Washington insiders as their VP choice.
On the economy: No one in either party has the "expertise" when it comes to the economy. You can make the case that McCain put his foot in his mouth by admitting the truth but that is as good as a political ad or some rhetoric in stump speech. Truth is, no one is the expert. Unless they have a degree in economics or run a state budget (hint) then it really doesn't matter. Even then I would take it with a grain a salt. Bottom line is that there is also a position for that expert too. Secretary of treasury...anyone?
Here is my biggest gripe in your post:
"She has all but endorsed Obama's energy plan"
No she didn't. Here are the facts:
Palin wasn't so much agreeing with Obama as she was happy that Obama was agreeing with her.
That Alaska gas pipeline was not in Obama energy plan up until August 4th, 2008.
Quote:
Obama Responds to Begich Request on Gas Line
8.4.08
Presidential candidate includes natural gas line in energy plan
Six weeks after U.S. Senate candidate Mark Begich met with Presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama encouraging Obama to include Alaska’s natural gas line in his energy plan, Obama today included the gas line in a major energy speech given in Michigan. Presenting his “New Energy Plan for America” in Lansing, Senator Obama specifically referenced the gas line and its importance in an energy plan. He also mentioned the National Petroleum Reserve-Alaska, also known as NPR-A.
Furthermore, your cited article says Palin was only agreeing with Obama's plan that she was for prior to Obama adding it to his plan with the coaxing of U.S. Senate candidate Mark Begich.
Palin is on record that she was for the pipeline before Obama added it to his energy plan.
Quote:
Palin backs TransCanada pipeline plan
By SEAN COCKERHAM scockerham@adn.com
Even some Alaskans know that the Republicans are over blowing her experience and accomplishments.
__________________
__________________
Favorite Serenity (Firefly) Quotes:
__________________________________________________ ___________
Mal - "Do you want to run this ship?"
Jayne - "Yes!"
Mal - [caught off guard] "Well.........you can't"
__________________________________________________ ___________
Zoe - "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
Book - "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
__________________________________________________ ___________
Wash - "This landing is gonna get pretty interesting."
Mal - "Define interesting."
Wash - [deadpan] "Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die!?"
Jayne - "We're gonna explode? I don't wanna explode!"
__________________________________________________ ___________
Kaylee - "Goin' on a year now I ain't had nothin' twixt my nethers that weren't run on batteries!"
Mal - "Oh, God! I can't *know* that!"
Jayne - "I could stand to hear a little more.
__________________________________________________ ___________
Jayne - "SHINEY! Let's be bad guys."
Even some Alaskans know that the Republicans are over blowing her experience and accomplishments.
No amount of rationalizing gets her past this stuff..... Everything else about her (and there's plenty) simply becomes sauce for the goose.
She's a nasty little butthead. I think McCain is going to end up regretting this little stunt.
__________________
Here's to the Army and Navy and the battles they have won; here's to America's colors, the colors that never run. May the wings of liberty never lose a feather. ....
1. Rabidly pro-birth (even in cases of rape).
2. Against same sex marriages and benefits for same sex domestic partners.
3. Originally for creationism being taught in public schools (now softened to "she's ok with it." )
4. Doesn't believe global warming is caused by humans.
5. Says "Hillary's whining" turned her off.
6. Was untruthful in her first national speech.
7. Is under investigation by the Alaska State Legislature.
8. Zero foreign policy experience.
9. Says in an upcoming People Magazine article, "Do you feel ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency? SARAH: Absolutely. Yup, yup. Especially with a good team around us."
10. Not supported by a number of Republican Alaskan Legislators who don't think she should be a VP Candidate
And those are off the top of my head. And they're supposedly going after disappointed Hillary supporters??????
There were actually some qualifed women McCain could have put on the ticket, assuming gender was his qualifier.
I do believe that the D's are not going to go after her directly, though..... It will be dumped on McCain for exercising (more) bad judgement on his pick.
__________________
Here's to the Army and Navy and the battles they have won; here's to America's colors, the colors that never run. May the wings of liberty never lose a feather. ....
1. Rabidly pro-birth (even in cases of rape).
2. Against same sex marriages and benefits for same sex domestic partners.
3. Originally for creationism being taught in public schools (now softened to "she's ok with it." )
4. Doesn't believe global warming is caused by humans.
5. Says "Hillary's whining" turned her off.
6. Was untruthful in her first national speech.
7. Is under investigation by the Alaska State Legislature.
8. Zero foreign policy experience.
9. Says in an upcoming People Magazine article, "Do you feel ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency? SARAH: Absolutely. Yup, yup. Especially with a good team around us."
10. Not supported by a number of Republican Alaskan Legislators who don't think she should be a VP Candidate
And those are off the top of my head. And they're supposedly going after disappointed Hillary supporters??????
There were actually some qualifed women McCain could have put on the ticket, assuming gender was his qualifier.
I do believe that the D's are not going to go after her directly, though..... It will be dumped on McCain for exercising (more) bad judgement on his pick.
Two points--
I can put a similarly half-baked and misleading list about Obama together--opposed law that would require living aborted babies to be cared for, did coke in college, zero executive experience, brothers-in-arms with an admitted terrorist, had his kids baptized by an anti-white bigot, etc... etc... Since a lot of people are willing only to look at issues and cirumstances peripherally, and rely on what media and politicians and political parties say about an opponent, what you've listed about Palin and what I've listed about Obama will unfortunately drive a lot of votes in November.
But more to the point, I suspect the McCain campaign was expecting and hoping that Obama supporters and his campaign would dismiss Palin so casually and suddenly. To a lot of Hillary supporters, Obama not even taking a glance at Hillary when picking his running mate was a disrespectful affront. And as many Democrats and especially the Obama campaign dismiss Palin with a simple wave of the hand within hours of the announcement, saying she's not up to the job without having the capability to know whether she is, some of those Hillary supporters will probably see it as more of the same.
This race was essentially tied as of early Friday morning, with Obama probably gaining a couple of points because of his great acceptance speech. If Palin can bring over only 20% of those who voted for Hillary during the Democratic primary, that would be an 8 million vote swing in McCain's favor--which is about a 7% swing, which would probably get McCain a win in November.
Last edited by Kolo; August 30th, 2008 at 02:57 PM.
)