POD: Israel and Palestine

UncleChris · October 30th, 2005, 05:23 AM

Thought I'd go out with a bang....

Space limitations make this pole question/answers choppy and simplistic.... my apologies. Hopefully it's good enough for all to get their points across.

Thanks to everyone for participating in my POD days in the sun!!

wallyburger · October 30th, 2005, 07:17 AM

Good job U C.

Israel is a propped up illegitimate country. No one wanted the Jews after WWII, so they were given someone elses sovereign nation based on some silyl assed 5000 year old religious claim rationale. Amazing to me that Millions of religiously connected people from all over the world could hijack a country. Biggest real estate farce since the white man stole Manhattan Island for $26 worth of trinkets.

David Ben Gurion pulled off one heluva heist. BTW, we can thank the British for brokering that deal.

Dback Jon · October 30th, 2005, 08:19 AM

A lot of intolerance on both parts.

I can't completely blame the Israelis, based on what had just happened in Europe (the Holocaust). I understand why they desired a country of their own.

AZZenny · October 30th, 2005, 08:42 AM

Israelis were working on a country of their own long before WWII - and lots of Hebrews had lived in the area for many generations at that point. They actually fought alongside the Arabs against the British occupiers! They were thinking of a shared independent nation at that point, naively. One of the initial rules for setting up Israel was that very few Holocaust survivors were allowed to emigrate. That didn't last for long... and that pissed off the local arabs, and the rest is modern history...

Israel is a legitimate nation - as much as any other nation with artificially drawn borders, which means half the Middle East, all of Eastern Europe, and most of the Soviet Republics. 'Palestine' would be no more legitimate - there was no Palestine as a nation.

Anyhow, I voted 2.5. They are dancing, but it won't work due largely to fundamentalist Arab intransigence.

I believe Israel would compromise a lot, if it guaranteed an end to terrorist bombs and calls for the annhilation of the Jews. I do not believe the Arabs will let that happen - even if the majority of Palestinians wanted a peaceful compromise, terrorism is an entrenched way of existence for so many islamic fundamentalists and Arab states, that they'll never let it happen. And if they ever do wipe Israel out, they'll simply turn their attention to a newer, bigger target.

wallyburger · October 30th, 2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dback Jon

A lot of intolerance on both parts.

I can't completely blame the Israelis, based on what had just happened in Europe (the Holocaust). I understand why they desired a country of their own.

Check out David Ben Gurion and the Zionist movement.

LoyaltyisaCurse · October 30th, 2005, 08:24 PM

Both sides are intolerant arses not really desiring peace.

UncleChris · October 31st, 2005, 06:35 AM

While there is plenty of blame to go around, recent events prove that the Palestinians are a bunch of uncontrollable, ignorant Tribal groups. That was Arafat's bane: He really couldn't speak with authority for the Palestinians, for there really is no such thing as the "Palestinians." Couple that with the view from Hamas that all the Jews should simply be pushed into the ocean, and.... well..... peace just ain't gonna happen.

It's also interesting to see the rest of the Arab world act like cheerleaders.... They say, "yay-rah-team" to the Palestinians, but really offer them little else in the way of real support. Nobody else in the world wants them.... Not the Saudi's, the Syrians, or even did Saddam... And all have plenty of land that they could have let them use. (Yes..... I remember Saddam gave money to bomber's families....).

Within days of Israel pulling out of the Gaza Strip, Hamas buttholes were already smuggling forbidden weapons in. What a surprise.

Look.... if we're going to judge Israel by how the became a country some 60 years ago, then let's do that to ALL countries...

The fact is, they're a bona fide nation, recognized by the United Nations, and have a right to their sovereignty....period. If Texas were assaulted by Mexico because we stole it from them some years ago, do you thing we'd cede any of it back to them??? Chuh!!!! When monkeys fly outta my butt!!!

AZZenny · October 31st, 2005, 07:08 AM

Quote:

When monkeys fly outta my butt!!!

Gad, what a hideous image!! Gave me my first Hallowe'en fright of the day! Thanks, Chris.

I agree with you, as usual - maps and 'geopolitical realities' (great euphemism for 'nations' isn't it?) are ever-changing. We can't just say 'anything before 1945 is a legitimate country/boundary, anything after is not.' No question a great many ongoing conflicts relate to conference-table cartography - Kurds, Sri Lanka, Java, Balkans, Kashmir, Soviet Union, etc - but world superpowers have been divvying up and granting lands to various friends and followers for thousands of years - Hell, even the Romans weren't the first to do so, although they started the current mess in Israel.

Chris_Sanders · October 31st, 2005, 07:47 AM

BTW, my Jewish girlfriend is the one who voted "Intolerance on both sides"

RedStorm · October 31st, 2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleChris

While there is plenty of blame to go around, recent events prove that the Palestinians are a bunch of uncontrollable, ignorant Tribal groups. That was Arafat's bane: He really couldn't speak with authority for the Palestinians, for there really is no such thing as the "Palestinians." Couple that with the view from Hamas that all the Jews should simply be pushed into the ocean, and.... well..... peace just ain't gonna happen.

It's also interesting to see the rest of the Arab world act like cheerleaders.... They say, "yay-rah-team" to the Palestinians, but really offer them little else in the way of real support. Nobody else in the world wants them.... Not the Saudi's, the Syrians, or even did Saddam... And all have plenty of land that they could have let them use. (Yes..... I remember Saddam gave money to bomber's families....).

Within days of Israel pulling out of the Gaza Strip, Hamas buttholes were already smuggling forbidden weapons in. What a surprise.

Look.... if we're going to judge Israel by how the became a country some 60 years ago, then let's do that to ALL countries...

The fact is, they're a bona fide nation, recognized by the United Nations, and have a right to their sovereignty....period. If Texas were assaulted by Mexico because we stole it from them some years ago, do you thing we'd cede any of it back to them??? Chuh!!!! When monkeys fly outta my butt!!!

AZZenny · October 31st, 2005, 08:22 AM

No question, intransigents on both sides - as one of my favorite movie lines says: "Everywhere I go, there's always an asshole."

Here's the arseholish Israeli side:

The family of the man who assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin is lobbying for his early release from prison, sparking an uproar in Israel as the country prepares to mark the 10th anniversary of Rabin's death.

Yigal Amir killed Rabin on Nov. 4, 1995 to prevent the handover of land to the Palestinians. He has shown no remorse.

On its Web site, the Amir family said 10 years in prison is sufficient punishment for killing Rabin.

"The security situation in Israel has proven that Yitzhak Rabin committed a crime against his people when he surrendered our lives and safety to our most bitter enemy," the statement said, according to the Yediot Ahronot daily. "An offense committed against a criminal calls for a much lighter punishment than an offense committed against an ordinary citizen."

Israeli legislator Ran Cohen has filed a police complaint against the Amirs, and Israel's attorney general is examining whether charges will be filed.

"I have had enough of that family. It makes me feel sick, and it drives me out of my mind every time I hear about their activities against Israeli society," Cohen told Israel Radio on Saturday. "This family doesn't understand that Yigal Amir killed a prime minister and that if he doesn't rot in a grave he should rot in jail for the rest of his life," he said.
...
Amir, who opposed Rabin's peacemaking efforts with the Palestinians, shot Rabin after a political rally. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
. . .
A poll published in Yediot over the weekend showed that 20 percent of the Israeli public thinks Amir should be pardoned. Gillon said the results did not surprise him. Because Rabin's security detail did not kill Amir immediately, he has become a poster boy for the radical right wing, encouraging political killings, Gillon said.

"The assessment that the next political assassination is upon us is correct," he said. The radical right wing, he said, is now focusing its hatred on another person, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, he added.

And yesterday Sharon failed to hold together a moderate pro-peace coalition, losing both his own followers uneasy with how Gaza has turned out, and other allied parties who think ministerial positions are ripe for the picking as he falls. The real hard-liners will now demand early elections and push for a super-militant government again. (This, btw, is why I am more inclined to support a 2-party system. Two groups of self-interested crooks is plenty.)

swd1974 · October 31st, 2005, 08:29 AM

Palestinians are uncontrollable, ignorant Tribal groups: Failure is their fault

RedStorm · October 31st, 2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Palestinians are uncontrollable, ignorant Tribal groups: Failure is their fault

Ok...moving right along here...Any one up for sushi??? Anyone??

krepitch · October 31st, 2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStorm

Ok...moving right along here...Any one up for sushi??? Anyone??

swd is buying.

CardLogic · October 31st, 2005, 03:07 PM

At some point in the future there will be a period of 7 years of peace. The temple will be rebuilt. And then after 7 years, all hell will break loose!!!

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!