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View Poll Results: POD: I believe Muslims:
Are millions and millions of decent folks, but populated with a few bad apples 13 34.21%
Are pretty tolerant folks, but there's a helluva lot more than a few bad apples 11 28.95%
Have little use for anyone else, but publicly smile and grit their teeth ('cept for the bad apples) 10 26.32%
While some are more militant than others, all would prefer to see us fall off the planet 4 10.53%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 26th, 2005, 11:07 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolobotomy
The ones I've known personally (largely from going to school in Jerusalem for 6 months back in 1989) were remarkably friendly, we'd even get invited in for dinner by total strangers just walking down the street. The common refrain was that they hate U.S. policy because they hate Israel, but the vast majority were great and I made a few very good friends. Then again, my friends and I were baraged by rocks driving in a VW bus through downtown Hebron, too.
Seems that you have described the "smile and grit their teeth" option! (Smile to your face, curse you behind your back.)
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Old October 26th, 2005, 11:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by CardLogic
Seems that you have described the "smile and grit their teeth" option! (Smile to your face, curse you behind your back.)
I don't think so. Most were very genuine. Those that'd curse you wouldn't wait until your back was turned.

EDIT: at least as far as I could tell.

Last edited by Kolo; October 26th, 2005 at 12:12 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 01:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swd1974
Are pretty tolerant folks, but there's a helluva lot more than a few bad apples
We agree again!
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Old October 26th, 2005, 01:56 PM   #19
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Last choice on the poll.
then you don't know ANY Muslims.
All RELIGIONS are stupid, but most individuals are decent.
It's that mob scene that blows it.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 02:06 PM   #20
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I wonder how Muslims would view americans if they had a similar poll.

btw...this news excerpt gives me hope that there are muslim moderates slowly speaking out for understanding one another...

Quote:

Bahraini Researcher Dhiaa Mussawi:

Quote:
Women Should be Rulers in the Arab and Muslim World. I Call for Understanding the West, Not Dissolving in It.




The following are excerpts from an interview with the Bahraini researcher Dhiyaa Mussawi, which was broadcast by Al-Arabiya TV on September 21, 2005
Quote:


Dhiyaa Mussawi: First of all, of course I don't think that Islam is against women. Second, I think part of the crisis in the Arab world is that no Arab country is ruled by a woman. I believe women can even be rulers, not only judges. This is my ideological belief, which I can support with jurisprudence. Some scholars, like Sheik Shams Al-Din and Fadhlallah called for that. We believe that women...

The interviewer: You mean women should be rulers?

Dhiyaa Mussawi: Yes. The problem is that we still live in a male-dominated society.

[...]

The Western world thinks about reaching Mars in 2015, while we are still debating the question of women driving, like some of our brothers in Saudi Arabia are doing.

[...]

The interviewer: You are not trying to make points with the West?

Dhiyaa Mussawi: Absolutely not. I wish for a future and for coexistence between people. I believe in the verse "Call (people) to the way of the Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation," and not in calling (people) to the way of the Lord with goodly explosives belts, or bombing them in the most gracious way.?

[...]

We must strengthen the common ground in the mentality of the believing youth, instead of allowing Muslims to develop an outlook based on explosive historical stories, so they will explode in New York, London, or any other place.

[...]

The interviewer: You often call for opening up to the West. You emphasize this.

Dhiyaa Mussawi: I do not advocate opening up to the West. I call for understanding the West rather than dissolving in it. There is a difference.

The interviewer: If I called for opening up to the West, nobody would accept it, so you are trying to...

Dhiyaa Mussawi: I am not trying to dress it up with pretty words. The West exists. I object to the constant hunt for the Western "demon". The West is not all black. The West has anthropology, and human sciences. Many of our sheiks, when they are sick, they go to hospitals in Britain, America, France, and so on. We can adopt the Japanese mentality. Despite the catastrophes in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Japanese benefited from the Western organizational ingenuity, from the institutions in the society, from the rule of law and so on. They adopted all these, and began to produce... This is the difference between us and them. When we hate someone, we see only as a demon. We see him as a jinn. At the same time, as you can see, everything you read, the media, the press – it all comes from the West. Yet I do not advocate Westernizing Muslim society.






Last edited by Djaughe; October 26th, 2005 at 02:13 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 02:19 PM   #21
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I dunno who this Dhiyaa Mussawi is...but I like what he is trying to promote.

Karen Hughes could learn alot from folks like him.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CardLogic
The avatar (pun intended) of Islam is Muhammed, of Christianity Jesus Christ.
While Muhammed is known to have personally practiced and espoused violence against non-believers, Jesus personally practiced and espoused acceptance, love and non-violence towards all people.
Yeah, Jesus would never go after merchants with a whip made of cords, overturning tables and kicking people out of a temple.

He would never say things like "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

He would never say anything like "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three..."

He would never advocate that those who don't own a sword should sell their cloak to buy one.

It is not as if the Bible ends with a book that apocalyptic wars or anything. What do you think the Christian God is, some sort of Lord of Hosts? If that were the case, Christians would be singing songs about being "Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus, going on before."
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Old October 26th, 2005, 03:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Neo
...Christians would be singing songs about being "Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus, going on before."
I always thought the "Praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition" song as pretty catchy.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 04:04 PM   #24
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Sounds as though you have taken the blue pill, Neo!!!

John 2: 13-17
When the Passover Feast, celebrated each spring by the Jews, was about to take place, Jesus traveled up to Jerusalem. He found the Temple teeming with people selling cattle and sheep and doves. The loan sharks were also there in full strength.
Jesus put together a whip out of strips of leather and chased them out of the Temple, stampeding the sheep and cattle, upending the tables of the loan sharks, spilling coins left and right. He told the dove merchants, "Get your things out of here! Stop turning my Father's house into a den of thieves!" That's when his disciples remembered the Scripture, "Zeal for your house consumes me."
Jesus took up a whip, and chased the merchants out of the temple. Scripture says nothing of him using the whip upon someone.
Jesus was indignant that a place intended for worship had become contaminated with worldy desires.

Regarding the other "quotes" you have used. Do you understand the context? Who is it that will posess the sword? (Matthew 10:34 -"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.")

Jesus was telling his disciples how they will be persecuted, tortured, whipped, jailed, etc. for spreading the message Christ had given them.

Along the same lines of pitting father against son, mother against dauther, brother against brother, etc. It is from the same chapter, Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 10. Jesus is again telling his diciples the following His way will cause family members to disown them and be against them.

Those things which Jesus warned His diciples of did in fact take place.

Neo, a recommendation... prior to quoting the Bible do a little research to understand the context and meaning of the passage which you choose to use.


Matthew10 (The Message)
The Twelve Harvest Hands
1The prayer was no sooner prayed than it was answered. Jesus called twelve of his followers and sent them into the ripe fields. He gave them power to kick out the evil spirits and to tenderly care for the bruised and hurt lives. 2This is the list of the twelve he sent:
Simon (they called him Peter, or "Rock"),
Andrew, his brother,
James, Zebedee's son,
John, his brother,
3Philip,
Bartholomew,
Thomas,
Matthew, the tax man,
James, son of Alphaeus,
Thaddaeus,
4Simon, the Canaanite,
Judas Iscariot (who later turned on him).

5Jesus sent his twelve harvest hands out with this charge:

"Don't begin by traveling to some far-off place to convert unbelievers. And don't try to be dramatic by tackling some public enemy. 6Go to the lost, confused people right here in the neighborhood. 7Tell them that the kingdom is here. 8Bring health to the sick. Raise the dead. Touch the untouchables. Kick out the demons. You have been treated generously, so live generously.

9"Don't think you have to put on a fund-raising campaign before you start. 10You don't need a lot of equipment. You are the equipment, and all you need to keep that going is three meals a day. Travel light.

11"When you enter a town or village, don't insist on staying in a luxury inn. Get a modest place with some modest people, and be content there until you leave.

12"When you knock on a door, be courteous in your greeting. 13If they welcome you, be gentle in your conversation. 14If they don't welcome you, quietly withdraw. Don't make a scene. Shrug your shoulders and be on your way. 15You can be sure that on Judgment Day they'll be mighty sorry--but it's no concern of yours now.

16"Stay alert. This is hazardous work I'm assigning you. You're going to be like sheep running through a wolf pack, so don't call attention to yourselves. Be as cunning as a snake, inoffensive as a dove.

17"Don't be naive. Some people will impugn your motives, others will smear your reputation--just because you believe in me. 18Don't be upset when they haul you before the civil authorities. Without knowing it, they've done you--and me--a favor, given you a platform for preaching the kingdom news! 19And don't worry about what you'll say or how you'll say it. The right words will be there; 20the Spirit of your Father will supply the words.

21"When people realize it is the living God you are presenting and not some idol that makes them feel good, they are going to turn on you, even people in your own family. 22There is a great irony here: proclaiming so much love, experiencing so much hate! But don't quit. Don't cave in. It is all well worth it in the end. 23It is not success you are after in such times but survival. Be survivors! Before you've run out of options, the Son of Man will have arrived.

24"A student doesn't get a better desk than her teacher. A laborer doesn't make more money than his boss. 25Be content--pleased, even--when you, my students, my harvest hands, get the same treatment I get. If they call me, the Master, "Dungface,' what can the workers expect?

26"Don't be intimidated. Eventually everything is going to be out in the open, and everyone will know how things really are. 27So don't hesitate to go public now.

28"Don't be bluffed into silence by the threats of bullies. There's nothing they can do to your soul, your core being. Save your fear for God, who holds your entire life--body and soul--in his hands.



Forget About Yourself
29"What's the price of a pet canary? Some loose change, right? And God cares what happens to it even more than you do. 30He pays even greater attention to you, down to the last detail--even numbering the hairs on your head! 31So don't be intimidated by all this bully talk. You're worth more than a million canaries.
32"Stand up for me against world opinion and I'll stand up for you before my Father in heaven. 33If you turn tail and run, do you think I'll cover for you?

34"Don't think I've come to make life cozy. I've come to cut-- 35make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother, bride and mother-in-law--cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. 36Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies. 37If you prefer father or mother over me, you don't deserve me. If you prefer son or daughter over me, you don't deserve me.

38"If you don't go all the way with me, through thick and thin, you don't deserve me. 39If your first concern is to look after yourself, you'll never find yourself. But if you forget about yourself and look to me, you'll find both yourself and me.

40"We are intimately linked in this harvest work. Anyone who accepts what you do, accepts me, the One who sent you. Anyone who accepts what I do accepts my Father, who sent me. 41Accepting a messenger of God is as good as being God's messenger. Accepting someone's help is as good as giving someone help. This is a large work I've called you into, but don't be overwhelmed by it. It's best to start small. 42Give a cool cup of water to someone who is thirsty, for instance. The smallest act of giving or receiving makes you a true apprentice. You won't lose out on a thing."
Matthew 10 (Contempary English Version)

Jesus Chooses His Twelve Apostles
(Mark 3.13-19; Luke 6.12-16)
1Jesus called together his twelve disciples. He gave them the power to force out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and sickness. 2The first of the twelve apostles was Simon, better known as Peter. His brother Andrew was an apostle, and so were James and John, the two sons of Zebedee. 3Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus were also apostles. 4The others were Simon, known as the Eager One, and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.

Instructions for the Twelve Apostles
(Mark 6.7-13; Luke 9.1-6)
5Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions:
Stay away from the Gentiles and don't go to any Samaritan town. 6Go only to the people of Israel, because they are like a flock of lost sheep. 7As you go, announce that the kingdom of heaven will soon be here. 8Heal the sick, raise the dead to life, heal people who have leprosy, and force out demons. You received without paying, now give without being paid. 9Don't take along any gold, silver, or copper coins. 10And don't carry a traveling bag or an extra shirt or sandals or a walking stick. Workers deserve their food. 11So when you go to a town or a village, find someone worthy enough to have you as their guest and stay with them until you leave. 12When you go to a home, give it your blessing of peace. 13If the home is deserving, let your blessing remain with them. But if the home isn't deserving, take back your blessing of peace. 14If someone won't welcome you or listen to your message, leave their home or town. And shake the dust from your feet at them. 15I promise you that the day of judgment will be easier for the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Warning about Trouble
(Mark 13.9-13; Luke 21.12-17)
16I am sending you like lambs into a pack of wolves. So be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17Watch out for people who will take you to court and have you beaten in their meeting places. 18Because of me, you will be dragged before rulers and kings to tell them and the Gentiles about your faith. 19But when someone arrests you, don't worry about what you will say or how you will say it. At that time you will be given the words to say. 20But you will not really be the one speaking. The Spirit from your Father will tell you what to say.
21Brothers and sisters will betray one another and have each other put to death. Parents will betray their own children, and children will turn against their parents and have them killed. 22Everyone will hate you because of me. But if you remain faithful until the end, you will be saved. 23When people mistreat you in one town, hurry to another one. I promise you that before you have gone to all the towns of Israel, the Son of Man will come.

24Disciples are not better than their teacher, and slaves are not better than their master. 25It is enough for disciples to be like their teacher and for slaves to be like their master. If people call the head of the family Satan, what will they say about the rest of the family?



The One To Fear
(Luke 12.2-7)
26Don't be afraid of anyone! Everything that is hidden will be found out, and every secret will be known. 27Whatever I say to you in the dark, you must tell in the light. And you must announce from the housetops whatever I have whispered to you. 28Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell. 29Aren't two sparrows sold for only a penny? But your Father knows when any one of them falls to the ground. 30Even the hairs on your head are counted. 31So don't be afraid! You are worth much more than many sparrows.


Telling Others about Christ
(Luke 12.8,9)
32If you tell others that you belong to me, I will tell my Father in heaven that you are my followers. 33But if you reject me, I will tell my Father in heaven that you don't belong to me.


Not Peace, but Trouble
(Luke 12.51-53; 14.26,27)
34 Don't think that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came to bring trouble, not peace. 35I came to turn sons against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. 36Your worst enemies will be in your own family.
37If you love your father or mother or even your sons and daughters more than me, you are not fit to be my disciples. 38And unless you are willing to take up your cross and come with me, you are not fit to be my disciples. 39If you try to save your life, you will lose it. But if you give it up for me, you will surely find it.



Rewards
(Mark 9.41)
40Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me. And anyone who welcomes me also welcomes the one who sent me. 41Anyone who welcomes a prophet, just because that person is a prophet, will be given the same reward as a prophet. Anyone who welcomes a good person, just because that person is good, will be given the same reward as a good person. 42And anyone who gives one of my most humble followers a cup of cool water, just because that person is my follower, will surely be rewarded.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 04:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
Yeah, Jesus would never go after merchants with a whip made of cords, overturning tables and kicking people out of a temple.

He would never say things like "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

He would never say anything like "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three..."

He would never advocate that those who don't own a sword should sell their cloak to buy one.

It is not as if the Bible ends with a book that apocalyptic wars or anything. What do you think the Christian God is, some sort of Lord of Hosts? If that were the case, Christians would be singing songs about being "Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus, going on before."
Neither of these passages are advocating taking a sword to your friends/family. They are just stating that is you put him first in your life problems are going to happen within your family, friends, nations etc. He also said Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you. It is easy to take parts of the Bible out of context but if you take it as a whole I don’t think you will find these discrepancies.



Jesus has always said the wages of sin if death. Nowhere in the bible is this sugar coated. When he comes back it is going to get nasty but it will be his work along with angels. Until then we are commanded to; 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.

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Old October 26th, 2005, 04:20 PM   #26
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As I said - you can find nice and nasty quotes in the Koran and the Bible and any other primary religious text. See our moderate Muslim friend quoted above.

In actual application and PRACTICE, through the centuries in which each of these religions has been somewhat potent, they have both been 'muscular' to the extreme about converting the non-believers. Overall, Christianity has been every bit as bloody as Islam, no matter what Christ or Mohammed are reported to have done or said.
The problem may not be the core religious teachings as much as the fundamentalist intolerance they both seem to spawn.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 04:34 PM   #27
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The problem may not be the core religious teachings as much as the fundamentalist intolerance they both seem to spawn.
Exactly the opposite.

The core religious teaching IS a source of the "problem". Muhammed, who had been exposed to and a follower of Christianity until founding his own religion, was initially peaceful in his approach, later in his life he became hate-filled and encourged violence towards anyone of Jewish or Christian faith. Muhammed's writings, i.e.- the Quran, reflect his change of heart.

Study it... as they say "I ain't makin' this stuff up!

Regarding the Muslim quoted above, I applaud his moderate approach. Btw, love the quote, "not in calling (people) to the way of the Lord with goodly explosives belts, or bombing them in the most gracious way.?" Guy has a sense of humor.

I can't help but wonder how many Muslim faithful now wish him dead for espousing his views of moderation.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 09:42 PM   #28
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You seem to conveniently slide by the historical fact that Christianity has been the driving force behind many more atrocities and wars than Islam - no matter what Christ or Mohammed said.

Christianity does not get a free pass for good intentions.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 10:03 PM   #29
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You seem to conveniently slide by the historical fact that Christianity has been the driving force behind many more atrocities and wars than Islam - no matter what Christ or Mohammed said.

Christianity does not get a free pass for good intentions.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 11:45 PM   #30
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what did Jesus have to say about tipping your bartenders and waitresses, and of COURSE your beautiful dancers?
I bet during the "missing years" age 12-30 he was smoking weed and banging chicks.
I heard he went to college w/ John Belushi
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