Offlimits with McCain

AZZenny · June 14th, 2008, 12:50 PM

Points:
1)Heard a couple analysts discussing how McCain spent the VietNam war completely isolated in a Viet Nam prison, where believing the US would prevail and denying contrary or negative news literally kept men from going insane. He had no opportunity to see the strategic, tactical, and PR mistakes of the war firsthand, or the rending impact of dissent at home. This is basically true, many others POWs have said this about themselves. I read a comprehensive history of the Hanoi POW experience that discussed this point as well. The implication is that his 'war hero experience' is not in any way a plus to him as a military leader or policymaker.

2) Every single mental health clinician I have spoken to who has any experience with serious PTSD is extremely concerned about someone with a POW and severe torture history as POTUS. It changes a person permanently in many ways, and just because you lack insight into it doesn't mean you haven't changed. (It is uncommon, although certainly not impossible, that the changes are positive.)

3) Now I am hearing many voices saying that any discussion of John McCain's war experience, his POW experience, or its effect on him or on his military/political world view is OFF LIMITS.

I will say that I think when you're talking POTUS, NOTHING is off limits, and if they're saying he's too sensitive or uptight to deal with it openly and fully, all the more so. If it's just being PC, then screw that.

OldDirtMcGirt · June 14th, 2008, 04:58 PM

I think that if he showed a history of PTSD symptoms and was diagnosed with the disorder, then it should be fair game. However, didn't the Navy undergo a thorough investigation of his psyche and basically say that everything checks out? The guy was offered a promotion to admiral, so clearly his peers believed him to be a capable and exceptional military leader.

The whole subject of combat service is a very touchy one. I had the same opinion with the whole investigation into Sen. Kerry's military records, I just don't think that it should be broached unless there is some pretty tremendous evidence that says it should.

Also, where do we draw the line? The whole business of combat is a very traumatic experience. You said that the POW experience changes a person permanantly in many ways. This is true, but should be expanded: combat experience changes a person permanantly in many ways. Yet there have been fine Presidents with combat experience.

Joe L · June 14th, 2008, 05:05 PM

I say go for it...it's fair. But the other side of the coin is that if he is unfit to run the country then I guess we have to put into question all the issues he has sided with us on.
Maybe he had momentary lapses of reason when he sided with us on immigration, torture, taxes and working with us on other issues. We can attribute them to his time at the Hanoi Hilton.

AZZenny · June 14th, 2008, 07:02 PM

The military didn't start diagnosing PTSD much until just a bit later, and then only if people really complained or showed severe decompensation. The terribly adverse effects of 'walking PTSD' was only fully appreciated 20-25 years later.

World-wide research shows that 50-70% of tortured POWs will have PTSD and nearly 100% have some significant symptoms, as opposed to 15-30% of active combat troops. It used to be believed officers were relatively less likely to develop PTSD but it turns out they have more reasons to cover up problems and more resources to deal with it outside the formal system.

He has over the years shown some pretty clear signs, his legendary temper being the most obvious, and I have read that the Navy offered him psychological treatment and he refused.

I don't really think the issue of possible PTSD is going to get much traction -- although I don't want him waking up out of a VietNam prison dream at 3 AM to answer the phone.

I'm more interested in the argument I heard on TV that his having been a POW does not necessarily equip him with the kind of military expertise his people claim for him, which was opposed by the perspective that challenging the impact of his wartime experiences in any manner should be 'offlimits.' That somehow to even discuss that point was disrespectful.

Shane · June 14th, 2008, 09:12 PM

I believe it to be fair game. Its the POTUS election for christs sake.

Hopwever I believe one side of the opinion to be complete bunk.

OldDirtMcGirt · June 15th, 2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZZenny

The military didn't start diagnosing PTSD much until just a bit later, and then only if people really complained or showed severe decompensation. The terribly adverse effects of 'walking PTSD' was only fully appreciated 20-25 years later.

World-wide research shows that 50-70% of tortured POWs will have PTSD and nearly 100% have some significant symptoms, as opposed to 15-30% of active combat troops. It used to be believed officers were relatively less likely to develop PTSD but it turns out they have more reasons to cover up problems and more resources to deal with it outside the formal system.

He has over the years shown some pretty clear signs, his legendary temper being the most obvious, and I have read that the Navy offered him psychological treatment and he refused.

I don't really think the issue of possible PTSD is going to get much traction -- although I don't want him waking up out of a VietNam prison dream at 3 AM to answer the phone.

I'm more interested in the argument I heard on TV that his having been a POW does not necessarily equip him with the kind of military expertise his people claim for him, which was opposed by the perspective that challenging the impact of his wartime experiences in any manner should be 'offlimits.' That somehow to even discuss that point was disrespectful.

Well, as I said, if the Navy docs thought that he was good to go, then that's good enough for me. As for the temper, considering he was called "McNasty" in high school, I doubt that that was born out of his POW experience

As for the argument that being a POW does not equip him with the proper military expertise, I think that that's true. Just by virtue of him being a prisoner doesn't necessarily means that he gets the finer points of the military beaurocracy. However, his over twenty year service in the Navy, being the liason to the Senate, commanding an aircraft carrier, etc. does give him that expertise.

The POW experience gives him two things. First, is it's a stunning affirmation of his character. That's why none of this Keating 5 stuff, however well merited, will work: the folks know his drive and determination, and they trust him. Too me, it tells you a lot about the guy's character and his inner strength to be able to withstand that stuff for five years.

Second, and this is often overlooked, is that it provides him the necessary context to be commander in chief in a time of war. Clearly one of this chickenhawk administration's main problems was that they fell too often in the video game syndrome. They saw things in terms of numbers and failed to sympathize with the grunt on the ground. The fact that McCain's son is serving in Iraq certainly helps that.

LVG · June 15th, 2008, 10:45 AM

I'm going to say that it needs to be brought out into the open. Our understanding of this disorder has advanced so much over the last 20 years, it really is worth looking into, both for the McCain personally, and for the electorate to make an informed decision.

Remember, this is a position where major policy is devised and implemented, where the control of the nation's armed forces rests (including WMD's), who must enforce the laws, who is the singular face of our nation abroad, etc. This is a potentially serious issue, and needs to be investigated and discussed openly. It needs to be non-political, just factual.

For what it's worth - I hope that this really is a non-issue, and that McCain has fully healed from this POW experience.

AZZenny · June 15th, 2008, 10:58 AM

I will also note his POW history wasn't off-limits for Stockdale, who according to unbiased and apolitical histories arguably handled his equally severe -- perhaps more severe -- captivity and torture as well or better than McCain.

Djaughe · June 15th, 2008, 08:34 PM

Fair Game.

LoyaltyisaCurse · June 15th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Personally I think it should be offlimits to all sides... I dont think his survival of that ordeal should be used as a good reason to vote for the man, nor should it be used as a bludgeon to keep him from office.

Now if the McCain camp wants to bring it into the discussion and use it as a reason for getting elected, then it becomes more fair gaime to me...

After seeing what happened to Kerry in the last election, I would hate to see my party stoop to the same disgusting lows as the Republicans.

AZZenny · June 15th, 2008, 09:28 PM

btw, just a note -- I had the privilege of meeting with an Israeli who was a Syrian POW in '67 and was tortured, and is now a psychologist specializing in combat veteran/POW PTSD. Most of their POWs did not, and do not, consider themselves or call themselves war heroes. They just call themselves Veterans, or former POWs.
Their POW support group is called 'Awake At Night.'

As long as McCain's campaign is going to trade on the war hero piece, I think that is open for discussion, and it doesn't have to be done in a way that's 'stooping.' Though I realize that's asking way too much of the media and politicians. When I think of how Stockdale was made the butt of jokes, it just makes me sick.

Cardinals.Ken · June 16th, 2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead

Fair Game.

Hopwever

PortlandCardFan · June 20th, 2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinals.Ken

Hopwever

It's Hopweaver.... You and Shane are having a hard day I see...

RugbyMuffin · June 23rd, 2008, 12:53 PM

In the game of mud slinging it is all fair game.

But the little voice inside me, which I am slowly trying to kill so I can be successful, says "ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME!?! THE GUY IS WAR HERO, SHOW SOME RESPECT!"

Stupid voice. Doesn't he know that virtue will land us in the poor house ?

It is fair game.

40yearfan · June 23rd, 2008, 06:51 PM

Fair game.