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View Poll Results: Should the United States require a mandatory term of military service for all?
Yes 12 23.53%
No 35 68.63%
Unsure 4 7.84%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:13 AM   #16
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F-that. Our countries principals weren't founded on militaristic goals, but for a freedom of oppression.

To begin with, I think they should up the pay for enlisted men & if someone extends their enlistment, they should be rewarded too.

If we do make everyone do serivce, are we better than any other nation? The old Soviet Union didn't even have that.

Big f-ing No
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogkf
F-that. Our countries principals weren't founded on militaristic goals,
But, if you read the "yes" replies, no one even mentions "militaristic goals" as a reason for mandatory service.

Quote:
If we do make everyone do serivce, are we better than any other nation? The old Soviet Union didn't even have that.
Are we better than any other nation now? By reading this board you'd think we weren't. Maybe by making a stint in the military a mandatory thing, we could be. We'd educate everyone in a vocation.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:22 AM   #18
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Israels Population: 6,276,883
USA's Population: 295,734,134

Using Israel as a model for mandatory military service kinda falls short considering the size of population.

The number of participants in a mandatory program would fall short of the term 'military'...in essence I see alot of forced labor unrelated to actual military service just to keep folks busy.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:24 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Pariah
Maybe by making a stint in the military a mandatory thing, we could be. We'd educate everyone in a vocation.
Worked well in the USSR...why develop new technology when you have all the mandatory manpower to pick the crops?
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pariah
But, if you read the "yes" replies, no one even mentions "militaristic goals" as a reason for mandatory service.

Are we better than any other nation now? By reading this board you'd think we weren't. Maybe by making a stint in the military a mandatory thing, we could be. We'd educate everyone in a vocation.
what about the people who go to college? I think mandatory service would inhibit the development of these people. Or ones who go to trade school....I think it would weaken our society. Instead of focusing on achievement & higher goals, they are stuck for 2 yrs in the service.

Many of those who go to college have a certain aptitude that may be lost while in military service.

Take 2 yrs out of someone's education & the doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc may be forced to do something else. Right now, you get your bachelors, masters, phd & post doc & you're talking 12 yrs. Add in another 2 yrs & that may dissuade many people to pursue higher learning.

I think if we go down this avenue, our objectives & morals that this country were founded upon are lost and it will weaken the country.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:29 AM   #21
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I voted yes, but my hope would be that people would voluntary serve the public in a variety of areas that don't necessarily include the military. Also, my voluntary would not be a self-serving program that would earn you points, money, credits or anything of value other than the value of helping others.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by maddogkf
Many of those who go to college have a certain aptitude that may be lost while in military service.

Like be a self-serving, holier-than-thou brat?
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:35 AM   #23
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on another level, what would happen to the college system? college sports? pro sports?
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZenny
Definitely, absolutely yes - coming from one of the more liberal folks here! Surprise!

I base my perspective partly on the model of Israel - everyone serves 3 years, gets in shape, learns various skills, learns to physically defend themselves, works together for the safety and betterment of their nation. For a number of years after, there is annual reserve duty. Their military traditionally has had enormous pride and competence, their youth may begrudge the time, but they typically develop a sense of cohesiveness and self-esteem - a true 'citizen army.'

This is our country, our nation, and we should be willing and proud to serve it and defend it as a citizen army. I don't believe that's slavery any more than compulsory education. It's a price everyone pays for living in a democracy. How can you say we are not supposed to serve the government? We ARE the Government! That's what set us apart from the old world.

Mandatory service -- a truly doesn't-matter-who-your-Daddy-is, kid, you're-goin-to-boot-camp type of mandatory -- for males and females both -- would have some equalizing/egalitarian effect, which this country desperately needs. It would, as Pariah noted, perhaps slice through some of the incredible self-indulgence and gross acquisitiveness and make kids grow up a bit.

A volunteer-only army - lets call it what it is, a hired army -unfortunately taps the poorest and the most limited youth for the most part, and to think that somehow makes it fair - or competent - seems pretty naive.

I am not trying to start an argument with you (because I don't have the time ) but since you seemed to bring up points I made I would like to respond.

First of all I don't think you are as liberal as you think you are.

Second, we are not Israel. We are not some tiny country surrounded by our enemies fighting for our survival. I am sure that if we were our perspective would be different.

Third, "we" may be the government but the point was that the people are paramount. Service to a government or to a state is not a requirement. I realize this streak of individualism really bothers some people but the challenge here (and everywhere) is for individuals to learn to get along and work together. If you have a compulsary service to a state then you have a collectivist system and that kills the individual spirit that has helped make this country so unique and successful at providing freedom and opportunity to it's citizens.


I respect your opinion AZZenny and I can see the benefits you suggest but I think this type of mandatory service is contrary to the ideals and goals of a free country.


How long before someone figures out a way around the system?


Remember the 13th amendment? Wouldn't something have to be done about that?


Amendment XIII
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogkf
what about the people who go to college? I think mandatory service would inhibit the development of these people. Or ones who go to trade school....I think it would weaken our society. Instead of focusing on achievement & higher goals, they are stuck for 2 yrs in the service.
Nothing is stopping people from going to college. It's just that they'd ALL be 20-year old freshmen instead of 18 year-old freshmen. IMO, people would be more prepared for college--more likely to focus on education instead of women and booze (speaking from experience, here...).

Are you saying: college + 2 years of service < college?
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:44 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by maddogkf
on another level, what would happen to the college system? college sports? pro sports?
everyone in these things you mention would simply be 2 years older.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Pariah
We've become a babied nation. As a whole, we've grown soft and lazy and we expect things to be handed to us--we think it's a right.
So your willing to force people to spend 2 years in the military for this reason? Just what facts do you have to back up a statement like this? Seems to me, if anything America is a more cut-throat society now than in previous generations.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pariah
Nothing is stopping people from going to college. It's just that they'd ALL be 20-year old freshmen instead of 18 year-old freshmen. IMO, people would be more prepared for college--more likely to focus on education instead of women and booze (speaking from experience, here...).

Are you saying: college + 2 years of service < college?
no, I'm saying that if you enforce 2 yrs of mandatory servitude, many people will choose a different path rather than the educational system.

People who would take many many years to complete their collegiate goals will now have 2 more years added on to their path.

Women, for example, would be a major issue with the whole biological clock thing. (don't get all uptight here, I'm using this as an example)

Many women like to be situated in a career before settling down for marriage. Let's say they graduate in their mid 20s, have a few jobs & finally settle on a career in their late 20s, early 30s.

They get married & you don't want top have kids right away. Kids start popping out early 30s. Now move that back 2 yrs & it's mid 30s. Pregnancies become higher risks the older you get.....

If we were surrounded by enemies & in a constant war with them like other nations, maybe I'd be for it. But to do it "to give our kids a swift kick in the pants" & to "learn life's lessons & grow up" hell no.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 09:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SirChaz
I respect your opinion AZZenny and I can see the benefits you suggest but I think this type of mandatory service is contrary to the ideals and goals of a free country.
Exactly. Why not just have the government choose your vocation alltogether. Hey we need more nurses? No problem, just mandate that the kids to go to nursing school (c'mon little johnny, it's for the good of the whole country - you love your country don't you)!
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Old September 15th, 2005, 10:06 AM   #30
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let's change this document if we are going to do this the right way:



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness only after mandatory military service. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes except for mandatory military service; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power but now this is ok to do because our youth is lazy.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. --And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
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