NEZCardsfan

Judas was the disciple that betrayed Jesus to the Roman soldiers with a kiss.

Alot of people site Judas when they debate Free Will.

Did Jesus choose Judas to be a disciple because he knew down the road this man would betray him??

Did Judas just choose to betray Jesus?? Could it have been any of the disciples......just Judas was the one that found the money appealing??

Did Jesus tell Judas to go betray him??

Could Jesus have done anything to stop Judas??

Divide Et Impera

Jesus was allegedly put on this earth for the sole purpose of being sacfrificed to absolve man's sins, right? If that is the case, Judas - or anyone in his place - shouldn't be considered a traitor, just a vehicle used for that end. Judas should be a saint....

If anyone is a traitor, it's God for sacrificing his own son, but no one would propose that....

Rivercard

"Gee, thanks dad" said Jesus when he found out....

NEZCardsfan

My interpretation is that Judas is a necessary character for Jesus to fufill the scriptures. Judas was neither good nor evil....he was just a flat, static character.

My take on Matthew 26, is that Jesus did indeed know that Judas would betray him, but he MUST not stop it in order for the resurrection to take place.

"But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Since Jesus was human, I just chalk that quote up to him being angry at what was going to happen. If he truly wanted to stop it he could have cracked Judas in the head with a thunderbolt or something.

Divide Et Impera

"But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Maybe betrayal means anyone who would impede with God's will for Jesus's sacrifice. After all, God's will is Jesus's will....

LoyaltyisaCurse

Very Interesting thought...

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

DjaugheOld

Makes sense...somebody had to betray Jesus.

In essence yer saying Judas was the victim of a design bigger than himself.

jenna2891

but that would be an argument for fate, something christianity rejects.

NEZCardsfan

Not really. I definitely believe in Free Will. I believe that I am choosing to be typing right now, that god didn't plan this for me.

As for Judas....you are right, somebody had and was going to betray Jesus. Doesn't matter if it was Judas Iscariot, or Peter Jones or Jeff Jackson. My take is that it is pretty damming to humankind, that God knew he could pick out 12 human beings to be his followers, and he had no doubt that one of them would have taken the money and turned him in. Heck, my take is all of them would have done it, eventually, if given the chance.

It seems like on Earth, anytime somebody comes around preaching Love and Tolerance, we feel we have to kill him..........happened to MLK in the 60's (not that I'm calling MLK God or anything.)

LoyaltyisaCurse

Christianity rejects fate? How so?

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

LoyaltyisaCurse

Isn't faith basically just another way of fulfilling a 'plan'? Seems to be just semantics to me.

So if everything is "all part of God's plan" it seems to me that Christanity believes in fate and destiny.

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

jenna2891

it takes away free will.

NEZCardsfan

To answer your question (I guess I can only answer for Catholics and not all Christians) a good majority still believe in Pre Destiny. They tend to be older, but it is still around.

It's still a pretty decent debate sometimes. I brought the thread up because last night my wife was in a religion class preparing for Ash Wednesday, and the issue came up again. Still shocks me to see how many people want to villafy Judas.

LoyaltyisaCurse

What about people who make the famous 'justifcations' for circumstances in life by saying, "Its all part of God's Plan" doesn't that in itself indicate they feel some things are pre-determined and not part of free-will?

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

NEZCardsfan

If this is leading up to the "why do bad things happen to good people," then that is a really good question.

The only thing I could say to that is that I believe in Free Will.....so people are choosing to do bad things to each other.

If you believe in fate, then when bad things happen to good people, you have to ask:
Is God All Good??
Is God All Powerful??