Pariah

LIC is joking, but there does seem to be fault in your explanation, Shawn.

God isn't a Cannon copier with lint on the glass. He's God. If he wanted to make us perfect, he could, right?

Stout

Look, I could just as easily point to ancient Norse texts as reasons to believe in THEIR Gods, but that would be just as blind. It's believing in something reported and perpetuated by man. To me, that's blind. I'll not knock anybody for blind faith...I laud them for their ability to have it...but I can't do it myself.

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Lead us to the promised land, Arians.

CardLogic

Ditto!

__________________

"...fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
-Samuel Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain)

LoyaltyisaCurse

I have a hard time believing that God would be accepting of this type of Christian:



Yet would not accept a person who has not accepted Christ yet led a good life?

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

FischerKing

can you point out my fault so that we can discuss it?

to answer your question - i suppose he could, and if he wanted to make pigs with wings he could have done that as well - i think you lost me on the point you are trying to make. explain?

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

FischerKing

you said: i'm not doing this with malicious intent, i'm just trying to point out the tension in your statement, which i believe is this: isn't what you believe (or not believe in this case) something perpetuated by you (a man)? i'm not saying that you are putting your belief on someone else, because i don't think you have done that - you've been very even-handed in this discussion. but you obviously have a point of view which you have expressed - where does that view come from? we do not live and learn in a vacuum, it orginates from somewhere. none of us is original, meaning that we all believe something reported and perpetuated by people at some level. it's inescapable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we believe it blindly either.

i will say this - a very fair question to ask is this: is the Bible a book written by men about God or is it a book by God given to man? Christianity isn't the only religion that claims to have a holy book with God speaking. eventually the question gets to: how do we test the validity of the claim?

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

Stout

Yeah, but you're not saying to believe that the TV works on faith, or believe that an airplane will stay up on faith...these are all things that I do not understand, in how they work or how they are made, yet I can have faith in them because THEY WORK (unless your computer gets a virus ). The problem lies in a person either having to believe in an ANCIENT religion that has ONLY been perpetuated by humans for over 2000 years, or face an eternity of damnation. THAT'S the problem.

__________________
Lead us to the promised land, Arians.

FischerKing

first - how do you know that God is accepting of that person or not?
second - i do my best to be very fair in my assessments and answers. one of the ways i attempt to do that is engaging in conversation by asking questions so that I understand the persons views that i am communicating with. why? so that i do not unfairly misrespresent their position when i am addressing it. i expect the same courtesy.

now - about your question. i asked what does "good" mean not because i don't have an idea of what it means, but i don't know what your idea of "good" is. we might both say something or someone is "good" but unless we hold the same meaning for the word, then we could be talking past one another and really not saying anything at all.

if you mean "good" in the sense that they don't get in "trouble" (whatever that may mean to you) and that they "take care of their families" (again, whatever standard you have in mind) and are "nice to strangers" (depends on your definition of "nice" and "strangers"), then i would have to say, according to my understanding of what Jesus said and meant, no, they would not get to Heaven. why? because people don't have to live up to my standard of what "good", "nice", "care", "strangers", etc. are - they have to live up to what God's standard of those things are. i, myself, might be a "good", "nice", and "caring" person to both family, friends, strangers and enemies - but so what. that doesn't get me anything. i'm bound by the same standard whether i like it or not. honestly, if it were up to me, i would change it, but it's not up to me because i'm not making the claims, therefore, i can't change the standards.

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

FischerKing

actually stout - that is exactly what i am saying! i'm saying faith in God works in the same way and i've actually used the illustration of the plane before in discussions because the principle of how Christian faith works is the same and it is described that way in Scripture.

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

LoyaltyisaCurse

Fisherking,

What is God's definition of a good person?

Seems to me that your definition of a good person pretty much represents what I feel...

__________________
"Going from the Raiders receivers to Larry Fitzgerald is like trading a Spam dinner for a well-aged T-bone steak." --Dan Hanzus

When I play rock, paper, scissors, I keep a glass of water in my hand and when my opponent throws down I throw the water in his face and say "Water". Beats all three, scissors can't cut-it, paper dissolves and the rock sinks. Plus it usually surprises the hell out of them.

FischerKing

LIC - in my last post i was going to expand on something, but that i would write this one instead.

Thomas Aquanis said that we use words in three ways:

1. Univocal
2. Equivocal
3. Analogical

in univocal usage, when we use a word, it means that exact same thing when we use it. example: if i were to say that i like you, and then turn around and say that i like stout, you have every reason to believe that i mean the same thing in both instances of the word "like".

in the equivocal usage of language, when i use a word, it means one thing in one sense and something else in another sense. example: if i say that i have a good singing voice and then turn around and say that Chris Cornell has a good singing voice, now i am using the word "good" in a equivocal way. i have a nice voice, but Chris has an amazing voice, yet i used the word "good" in both cases, but it means something different.

in the analogical usage of language we find this, where you use a word in one sense and it gives the hint of something else. example: if i say that i love my wife and she rejects my love i hurt. if God says that He loves my wife and she rejects his love, God's hurts too. i hurt from the rejection because i have lost something, God hurts from the rejection because my wife has lost something - that is the analogical usage of the word "love".

this is why i was trying to get the definition of those words - because if i use them in a univocal sense and someone else uses them in an equivocal sense, then we both miss the point of the conversation.

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

Stout

The problem is, it's not the same at all. I have flown countless times, and have watched flights, and known people who have taken flights. It works, without a shadow of a doubt.

How many people have you known FOR A FACT and not based on your faith that have gone to heaven? How many people do you KNOW have talked to God? Did you or anyone else read the first documents that the different chapters of the Bible were written on, or personally know the authors? No.

That is the difference. You can't equate the two. One you KNOW works. One you have FAITH in. Two whole different ball games.

__________________
Lead us to the promised land, Arians.

FischerKing

i believe that God's definition of a good person is a person who is perfect. since none of us can be perfect (that includes me) then none of us can acheive goodness. a common problem in talking about God and goodness is that we try to set goodness to our set of criteria (comparing ourselves to one another) whereas God sets goodness to his own standard - perfection. we judge each other by our standards while God judges us against his standards.

when God judges me, he doesn't compare me to you, or my neighbor or anyone else - he compares me to Himself. when we judge, we compare to each other. we say things like "at least i'm not as bad as so-and-so" or "i'm better than this person over there because i do this thing and that thing". but that's the wrong measuring stick.

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

FischerKing

it works without a shadow of a doubt? here is a link to the most recent fatal airline events: Airline Fatalities.

my point is this - it is the same and here is why: you have put your trust in not only the airline that you are flying on, but also in the pilots who are flying the aircraft. you put your trust in the mechanics who service the aircraft and the groundcrew. you put your trust in the air-traffic controllers that they navigate the other airlines to keep you safe. there are so many variables and factors out of your control, that you can't but help to put your trust in others to do their job well and to get you to your destination in safety.

how is it that you can put such trust in these people? well, you can look at the data for flight safety and see that a particular airline has a great record for non-fatal incidents. you now the statistics that most people cite such as flying is safer than driving a car. you have confidence in the manufacturer or the plane, that they built a well designed piece of machinary that accomplishes what it ought to - which is take-off, fly and land. you have all of this external data on which to feel comfortable and confident that you are putting your trust in the right people.

i can put my faith in God in the same sense - which is what faith is. i can look at the external data and feel comfortable and confident that my trust is not misplaced either. by the way, just as a point of interest, the word "faith" in the bible is the same word for "trust" or "confidence".

you exercise a certain amount of faith when you step aboard a plane no different than me exercising a certain amount of faith in the claims of Christ. so, it is the same - my faith comes by KNOWING something first and then putting my TRUST in it.

shawn

__________________


"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if
you win, you are still retarded..."

"I can't trust a woman who would marry me." ~ AzCards21

"I don't care what you believe, keep your religion out of my peanut butter!" ~ Assface

Stout

It is not the same at all, and you simply repeating ad nauseum that it is doesn't make it so. You're trying to compare putting faith in something modern that has PROVEN to be almost perfectly trustworthy to an ancient religion that is anything but. It's a silly analogy, and I'm disappointed you're pursuing it. You're better than that.

The problem as I see it (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you put so much store in your faith, and in the proofs that you accept, that you are giving it just as much weight as the so-called 'faith' I place in the airline industry. That is where you're going terribly wrong.

__________________
Lead us to the promised land, Arians.