Enjoy an Ads-Free ASFN - lighter and faster too! Become an ASFN-Contributor and help support the site.
Go Back   Arizona Sports Fans Network > Other Stuff > Politics and Religion > Polls

Welcome to ASFN Fan Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.


Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
View Poll Results: If Iraq becomes an Islamic theocracy can this war be considered a success?
No, this would signal utter failure. 6 23.08%
Yes,the majority in Iraq would have voted for it. 7 26.92%
It does not matter, civil war is inevitable 8 30.77%
I dont know 5 19.23%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 24th, 2005, 10:04 PM   #1
LoyaltyisaCurse
Answers Before Questions
 
LoyaltyisaCurse's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posts: 12,307
A$FN: 2,800

If Iraq becomes an Islamic theocracy will the war have been worth it?


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0825/p08s02-comv.html '
from the August 25, 2005 edition


Bush's antiterrorism formula

The Monitor's View :


The Bush formula for drying up terrorism is pretty basic: Democracy equals freedom equals a satisfied populace. Transform the Middle East, and the incentive for terrorists to wage war against their governments or those that support them evaporates.

But developments in Iraq and elsewhere in the region show the formula to be far more complex, starting with the very first component: democracy.

Americans and Europeans wouldn't recognize their democracies in Iraq's draft constitution, for instance. While Article Two states that "no law may contradict democratic standards," it also proclaims "no law may contradict Islamic standards" and "Islam is a main source for legislation."

The role of Islam in government goes to the heart of the democracy challenge in the region. As evidenced in Iraq, freedom of self- determination has unshackled conservative Islamists who argue that democracy means they can now have their say.

How much say is the question. Too much, and out pops the model of Iran, a theocracy as antithetical to democracy as communism and fascism. On the other hand, a Muslim country such as Turkey shows it's possible for an Islamist party to rule according to its values, but within a legal secular framework.

The irony, and frankly, concern, about Bush's formula is that while it has helped pave the way for more democratic elections from Afghanistan to Lebanon, it has opened the road to Islamist groups which pose a danger to democratic values.

The militant Islamist organization Hamas, for instance, is gaining in popularity against the ruling secular Fatah party of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Hamas still advocates attacks on Israeli citizens and still wants to eliminate Israel.

What would happen if it captured significant power in January's parliamentary elections? Will it be tempered by political experience? Will Palestinian voters, sick of violence, restrain Hamas? These are open questions, but the Palestinians' fledgling democracy allowed them to be raised - for better or worse.

There's another multifaceted situation that doesn't easily fit the Bush formula: Egypt.

By far the largest opposition group in that country, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, won't be allowed to participate in Egypt's first multicandidate presidential election Sept. 7. Banned since 1954, when its leaders tried to assassinate Prime Minister Gamal Abdel Nasser, the Brotherhood now forswears violence, calls itself moderate, and says all the right things about democracy.

As pressure builds for a more fair political process in Egypt, so will calls mount for the legalization of this group. But should that be allowed? Despite its political rhetoric, it aims to establish Islamic law in Egypt. The worry is that if the Brotherhood is legalized and wins an election, that would be it: one man, one vote, one time.

The caveats to the Bush formula are as vast as the Arabian Desert. And they penetrate to the core issue of separation of church and state, mosque and mandate. His equation could usher in a democratic era that respects Islamic values in the region but limits religion in government; or it could open the door to more Irans. Americans must become more conscious of the complexities involved.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
__________________
Goin' "Double Maverick!"

Last edited by LoyaltyisaCurse; August 24th, 2005 at 10:09 PM.
LoyaltyisaCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2005, 10:24 PM   #2
Derm
slippery when wet
 
Derm's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe - home of the AZ Cardinals
Posts: 1,776
A$FN: 1,200
You've done well in your inquiry.

We probably see a theocracy as a duplicate of Iran (funding source for a number of terror organizations). But, couldn't a theocracy be benevolent and be a good neighbor?

And, although Iraq was a considered a secular state it sure wasn't a good representative democracy. Those were some great elections that they held, eh?


I suppose self-determination is self-determination.
Derm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2005, 10:47 PM   #3
justAndy
Jolly Nihilist
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Old Town Scottsdale
Posts: 6,802
A$FN: 890
Theocracy is my prediction and i voted "don't matter - civil war".
Our soldiers are fighting for this?
Dying for this?
__________________
"Seachicken - it's what's for dinner" - me (until the 'Hawks sweep the Cards)
Every man has at least a bit of womanizer in him.
Check out Dephinger and Stoutpounder on our respective MySpace pages.
justAndy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 07:05 AM   #4
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
As long as they become a peaceful nation and the people vote for what they want - I'm fine with it.
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 07:52 AM   #5
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Might someone explain what is wrong if the people vote for a theocracy under their constitution?
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 07:58 AM   #6
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by andikrist
Theocracy is my prediction and i voted "don't matter - civil war".
Our soldiers are fighting for this?
Dying for this?
Interesting perspective.

So I recken because the afghanistan constitution has more references to Islam...you also equate our soldiers died in vain over there too?
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:02 AM   #7
Chris_Sanders
Super Moderator
 
Chris_Sanders's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Scottsdale, Az
Posts: 13,271
A$FN: 9,776
Send a message via ICQ to Chris_Sanders Send a message via AIM to Chris_Sanders
We will have created an islamic fundamentalist super state (with Iran) that has state sponsored terrorism and an aggressive nuclear agenda.

It's a total failure. It is what I said it would be 3 years ago, my generations Cuba not Vietnam.
__________________
Immortal
Chris_Sanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:03 AM   #8
Chris_Sanders
Super Moderator
 
Chris_Sanders's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Scottsdale, Az
Posts: 13,271
A$FN: 9,776
Send a message via ICQ to Chris_Sanders Send a message via AIM to Chris_Sanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
Interesting perspective.

So I recken because the afghanistan constitution has more references to Islam...you also equate our soldiers died in vain over there too?
The presence of Iran is why this would be a failure.
__________________
Immortal
Chris_Sanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:04 AM   #9
swd1974
Registered User
 
swd1974's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 13,198
A$FN: 1,455
Send a message via AIM to swd1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
you also equate our soldiers died in vain over there too?

What you have to understand about andi is that if the US was invaded by a foreign country and the president ordered counter attacks, andi would say the only reason he is counter attacking is to preserve the neocons interests.
__________________
Goal for 2008: Half as many penalties.

Last edited by swd1974; August 26th, 2005 at 05:38 AM.
swd1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:05 AM   #10
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Sanders
We will have created an islamic fundamentalist super state (with Iran) that has state sponsored terrorism and an aggressive nuclear agenda.

It's a total failure. It is what I said it would be 3 years ago, my generations Cuba not Vietnam.
Their constitution forbids terrorism.

Afghanistan has been developing its government with no media complaints and has more ethnic groups than iraq...they also border iran.

No one is crying about them becoming a 'cuba'.
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:09 AM   #11
Chris_Sanders
Super Moderator
 
Chris_Sanders's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Scottsdale, Az
Posts: 13,271
A$FN: 9,776
Send a message via ICQ to Chris_Sanders Send a message via AIM to Chris_Sanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
Their constitution forbids terrorism.

Afghanistan has been developing its government with no media complaints and has more ethnic groups than iraq...they also border iran.

No one is crying about them becoming a 'cuba'.
Because the Shiite's don't run Afghanistan, but they will run Iraq and Iran.

Different theocracy.

And yes it is Cuba. Removing one dictator in an attempt to establish a US friendly government, but in effect ultimately creates a regime that is a greater threat to national security. Sadly, history repeats itself.
__________________
Immortal
Chris_Sanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:26 AM   #12
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Sanders
Because the Shiite's don't run Afghanistan, but they will run Iraq and Iran.

Different theocracy.

And yes it is Cuba. Removing one dictator in an attempt to establish a US friendly government, but in effect ultimately creates a regime that is a greater threat to national security. Sadly, history repeats itself.
The constitution voted by the people of iraq will not let one group take control...just like the U.S. has their checks and balances.

Interesting analogy about cuba...do you have a copy of their constitution to support it?
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:28 AM   #13
CardLogic
.
 
CardLogic's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,523
A$FN: 830
Is Saudi Arabia ruled by Islamic law? YES. Is Saudi Arabia a democracy? NO.

Define islamac theocracy; there are innumerable variations.
__________________

"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
-Samuel Langhorne Clemens
CardLogic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:43 AM   #14
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardLogic
... Define islamac theocracy; there are innumerable variations.
Very good point.
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2005, 08:43 AM   #15
Chris_Sanders
Super Moderator
 
Chris_Sanders's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Scottsdale, Az
Posts: 13,271
A$FN: 9,776
Send a message via ICQ to Chris_Sanders Send a message via AIM to Chris_Sanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
The constitution voted by the people of iraq will not let one group take control...just like the U.S. has their checks and balances.

Interesting analogy about cuba...do you have a copy of their constitution to support it?
Constitutions are never changed right

Honestly, do you believe the fanatics that run Iran and outnumber everyone else in Iraq are going to follow the consitution to the letter once they are in power. I can't figure out if you are an idealist or I am too jaded.
__________________
Immortal
Chris_Sanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Sitemap:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:00 AM.



Subscribe in a reader
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios
Copyright © 2002 - 2006 ArizonaSportsFans.com
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design