Wild Card

TJ:

You mean, after he's tried--and failed--to replace John Elway with Bubby Brister, Steve Beuerlein and Brian Griese? Yeah, I can see why you have such faith in Shanahan's ability to identify and develop QB talent. You better hope he's right about Plummer; after all, since Elway retired, the Broncos have won the same number of playoff games as the Cardinals. (That's zero, for those of you keeping score at home.)

Know how long it's been since Denver won a playoff game, without Elway behind center? 1977. Twenty-six years ago. (That'd be the season that Red Miller's 12-2 team rode the #3 Orange Crush defense to the Super Bowl, where the Cowboys blew 'em away 27-10.) Wonder if it'll be another quarter-century before you win one again?

Good luck with the Cards' castoff, John. Maybe Shanahan got it right, this time.

Or not.

WC

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DCCardsFan

Every player on the team was part of the problem. I wouldn't argue with that.

By the end of October, I was agreeing that Plummer needed to be gone, and WOULD be gone.

That doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do well in his situation when he was here, however.

Larger problems facing the Cardinals for the past 4 years or so are a lack of a defense (specifically pass rush), a cheap owner, no 12th man support at home, injuries, as well as a perception amongst NFL players that you do not want to go to Arizona unless they it's for a big paycheck.

It seems some of that is improving. Further signs of goodwill would be Bidwill giving out free merchandise/tickets to players, as well as many other fringe benefits that would make players feel special. Getting 60,000 mostly Cardinals fans to games wouldn't hurt.

The biggest myth on this board is that Jake Plummer has played defenses over the years that played 8 and 9 man fronts to stop the run because other teams didn't respect our passing game. This is horsepoop. The perception from the opposing teams, whether or not they were right, was that they needed to stop the Boston/Plummer connection more than anything else. We had no running game for years. And you expect me, a person who actually breaks down tape and NEVER SAW the SAFETIES COMING TO THE LINE EXPECT TO BLITZ THE QB, to believe that other teams were focusing on our running game and daring Plummer to beat them downfield?

If there were 8 or 9 man fronts, tell me where! I have many games on tape (before last year's games), and will gladly review them. Show me ONE PLAY where other teams had safeties inching up into the box to stop the run. I still haven't heard of a single play.

We got two deep zones for years. Last year, when our running attack started coming around and our receivers got hurt, teams started stacking the box and playing our WRs with man coverage. That was the first time since '98 that other teams have been more worried about our running attack. And you can't blame them, when our starting receivers were a rookie and a guy off of waivers.

ajcardfan

I agree. You are being a straight-up jerk.

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Russ Smith

Lets not turn this into a personal attack I leave for vacation tomorrow and have no interest in stirring up crap here and leaving it for everyone else to read.

We don't agree on Jake, we probably never will. as I put in my other post, I don't care if Jake does well in Denver or not, my interest is the Cardinals, and my belief is he would NEVER do well here and had to go.

The reason I went to the Freak board, which I have posted there repeatedly, is I find it naive and frankly insulting for people to keep claiming that the Broncos coaches know more about Jake than the Cards coaches do. And for Bronco fans to insist they know more about him than Cards fans do. I did it over there for a reason, because I didn't want to disrupt THIS board because I know most people here are sick and tired of it and I respect that.

Playboy picked the Broncos to win the SuperBowl, they called Jake "supremely talented but frequently clueless" but then say that Shanahan will teach him how to win the way he transformed Elway and Steve Young. Classic example of why I went to that board in the first place.

I've said this to you and to others on this board, I don't dislike you, I do respect your opinions(you have said repeatedly you don't respect me or my opinions) and I fully realize we're never going to agree. I went over there specifically because people here are fed up with discussing Jake. I know most threads about Jake here wind up huge and I intentionally chose to debate on that board for that reason. I didn't hide there, I even posted here that I was there.

Hope everyone has a great week, after today I'll be gone until the 11th fishing in Baja.

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DCCardsFan

I told you the truth, Krang, and you chose not to believe it. I will not apologize, because I think there are too many posts talking about how great our new players are going to be, with no evidence to back it up. The expectations are getting set too high, and when the players don't live up to them, everybody's going to call them busts. It's the same old cycle.

I did write that the "people on [arizonasportsfans] are a bunch of worthless homers." I explained to you and anybody else listening that it was a mere generalization, and was probably too harsh. I explained that there were LOTS of people over here who I like to read, and that many aren't homers. I explained that this is BY FAR the best site for Cardinals' news, and without this, I wouldn't get any real insight into training camp and other developments.

To the extent that you truly believe that I consider each and every person on this board a "homer" and "worthless", I apologize. However, I do think that the atmosphere is too homerish, and I know what's going to happen in three months if this team doesn't perform: SCAPEGOATS. And chances are, I will be at least partially sticking up for those players scapegoated, because usually there's more wrong with a bad team than merely a couple players.

DCCardsFan

You respect me and my opinions? You constantly are accusing me of being a Jake fan and not a Cards fan. There have been many put-downs directed at me that I have not responded to.

I don't respect your OPINIONS because you admit you don't watch most of the games. Nearly every one of your opinions are based on stats, alone. I just don't think that's a fair way to judge players. That's why I occasionally call you a stat-nerd or say that you probably never played a contact team sport.

I don't like my team getting ragged on by the Denver fans either, and I strongly disagree that their COACHES are the reason why Jake will do better over there, but when you compare organizations, you have to admit that you would trade Bidwill for Bowlen. They do have a point when they say that he will be surrounded by better talent over there.

Whether he will do something with it is to be decided.

I don't care about the Broncos. I expect to be proven right, but I'd much rather be wrong and have the Cards outplay the Broncos this year. I just don't see it happening. And I think the witchhunt that scapegoated Jake will continue, except someone else will be that guy.

Simeon deserved it. Wadsworth, Mark Smith, Jamir Miller, Thomas Jones, Garrison Hearst, and Jake Plummer did not.

Brian in Mesa

Wadsworth held out for much of his rookie season, Mark Smith was a late-round draft pick who had a good year and wanted to cash in (later, he faked injuries), and Jamir took less (initially) to go to Cleveland.

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DCCardsFan

Don't necessarily agree that Mark Smith faked injuries. His career ended up being ended due to the same injuries that you're saying he faked, if I'm not mistaken (unless you're talking about something else).

Just like Wadsworth "lied" to us about recovering from his injuries. While both we and Wadsworth wanted to believe that he had recovered, he had not. And what his agent did wasn't NEARLY as bad as what McGahee's agent did. As for his holding out, I can't blame him for that either - in a game where players' careers average something like 3 years, you can't blame a guy for wanting to get set financially. And as we all know, Bidwill generally deserves some of the blame when a player holds out.

Just like Steadman is a "butcher."

Aside from these players' business decisions, I thought they all played hard when they were here, played through pain, were good players, and didn't deserve the treatment they got from the fans. That's all I'm saying.

Russ Smith

Again, I don't want to tie up this board DC. You came all the way over to that board and with your first post personally attacked me. when I retaliated with a you're a Jake fan not a Cardinal fan I was exaggerating.

I apologize if that statement really bothered you.

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DCCardsFan

Agreed. This will be my last post on the subject.

All of these things have been said a thousand times, and I don't know why I keep feeling the need to rehash them. I guess it's just because this board seems to be of one mind about most things (looks like a herd instinct to me), and I think getting some alternate opinions out there is good.

I admit that I have crossed the line into personal attacks a few times, while you have not. For that, I am sorry, and i can only say that I didn't really mean any harm, and any insults are simply a result of the fact that I was truly angry when I wrote them.

Taco John

Russ Smith

Wadsworth played in all 16 games as a rookie, he missed camp and preseason but no games. His problem was the Cards told everyone his demand violated the rookie cap, then wound up signing him to the very contract he demanded, which proved it did NOT violate the cap. My objection to him was his threat to go back to college. If not for the knee I fully believe Cards fans would love Andre Wadsworth, he's not a bad guy.

Smith frankly duped me, I hated the way Fergie dealt with him, but in the end it was pretty clear Mark knew how bad his knee was and that he had a limited window to cash in on, so he tried to get more money right away before the knee ended things. I understand it but I thought he handled it poorly.

Jamir was just plain silly, he thought he was worth more than he was and figured because we'd given Jake a huge deal, he'd get one too.

I still don't understand how anybody can say Jake was treated poorly given all the money and unconditional support he got here. It wasn't until year 5 where fans started to turn on him, that's the nature of the game in the NFL. Read the stuff the Bronco fans write about Son of Bob, it's just as bad if not worse.

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Taco John

Nobody ever did answer my question about how consistent Jakes offensive line played in front of him... I got a lot of hyperbole about how Jake did when he had protection, but I never got an answer about how consistent your offensive line has been...

I hear that only two of your five guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...

Am I hearing wrong? Why won't anybody address this? Is it because it would validate some of the things that DC Cards is saying, and is therefore political suicide around here?

Krangthebrain

Taco, not to be a dick, but it was answered right here.

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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.

Wild Card

TJ:

And your point is what, exactly? That Plummer would've been a perennial Pro Bowler if only he'd had decent protection on a consistent basis?

I thought that Plummer's mobility and athleticism were two of his supposed strengths. I thought he didn't need great protection to be productive. I thought he was supposed to be a QB who'd make a bad team look better, and a good team great.

You better hope that's all true. Otherwise, the Broncos offensive line--tied for 27th in the NFL last year for sacks allowed, with 46--will have Plummer running for his life, the same way Griese did.

And then Plummer will be outta there, two years after signing his big contract. The same way Griese was.

WC

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