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I've liked Jake since his days at ASU, and part of me was sorry to see him go, moreso out of sentimental value. But as a qualified, starting NFL QB, he leaves way too much to be desired. The 4th quarter comebacks and occasional excitement he can bring in no way make up for the horrendous decisions and out-and-out boneheaded plays he routinely makes. If you are looking for someone to play a mistake free, take-care-of-the-ball, high persentage offense, boy have you got the wrong guy.
It's true that Jake will win you some games in the 4th quarter. Whats also painfully true is that he will lose you more games in quarters 1-3.
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As a mathematician, I have to laugh at your argument. You've conveniently selected the 'best case' years of these idiots to make your claim.
Steve Beuerline's rating in the first 4 years hovered in the 66 to 78 range. The fifth year he went to Arizona, and immediately jumped up to 82, his best ever. The year he left Arizona he had his worst year ever, at a rating of 60, at Jacksonville. He had 3 years where his Int exceeded his TD, at Dallas, AZ, and Jacksonville respectively. Cut after a single year for the Jags, he went on to the Panthers and matured.
Esaison had a passing percentage for his career of 57%; his one year in Arizona he was at 56%. About every 4 years in his career he'd have a one or two season streak of more interceptions than TDs, and the one in Arizona was not his worse at all.
I didn't bother to look up the rest.
Yes, we haven't had a running game in quite a while. That changed last year with Shipp, and we're in a better position this year than ever.
I think you'll find a better corellation between QBs and their years experience, than trying to do some silly theory that Arizona is a proving ground for great QBs - as soon as they leave.
Shake, the one thing the Cardinals have not had in most of their previous 15 years in the valley of the Sun is a defense. Check the stats. They have been outscored by almost 100 pts a season for most of those years and have usually given up huge yardage on the ground. Only during the playoff run in '98 and 92'- 94' did the Cards do much of anything defensively. (Bugel's 92 and 93 teams had a stretch over two years, starting in midseason '92 where 14 of 16 losses were by a TD or less.)
Because of their poor D the Cards were often playing from behind. As anyone will tell you when you are playing catch up you are throwing more than normal and you will have more sacks and INT's as opposing D's know you gotta throw. This could be the reason so many QB's appear to have struggled more in AZ than with other teams.
Fortunately this is all going to change as IMO the Cards are getting ready to field the best Defense they've had in years.
As a mathematician, I have to laugh at your argument. You've conveniently selected the 'best case' years of these idiots to make your claim.
I disagree, I was actully looking for seasons to compare it with. take Beuerlein for example. you cant compare the 7 games he played in 1995 with jaxsonville to the 16 he played with the cards. So i was looking for season where they played a simular amount of games. its the same for the other guys I was looking at seasons where they played a simular amount of games. It gives you a more accurate comparison.
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I think you'll find a better corellation between QBs and their years experience, than trying to do some silly theory that Arizona is a proving ground for great QBs - as soon as they leave.
I can agree with that. maybee they just became more mature and learned thier weekeness later in thier carrers but it still doesnt explain why some of them had better years before and after they got to arizona.
How do you feel that Blake will fare with the current recivers and running backs on the team ?
Question: do you really want to compare Jake Plummer to a bunch of journeymen and over-the-hill has-beens? That's what the Cards employed for years before Jake. Though I can see a lot of validity in comparing Gelbaugh to Plummer.
Question: do you really want to compare Jake Plummer to a bunch of journeymen and over-the-hill has-beens
I dunno Gannon was a journeyman and so was brad Johnson and both of them were in the superbowl. and speaking of Journeymen you got one in your camp his name is Jeff blake.
Only 2 teams pursued Jake as a free agent. The Bears and Denver. If Jake was so great, he would have had teams everywhere knocking at his door in a QB deleted league.
Parcells didn't want him in Dallas, and he's developed more QBs than Shanahan ever did. Shanahan inherited Elway, he didn't develop him. Parcells helped develop Simms, Bledsoe, and even helped resurrect Testeverde's career with the Jets when he took them to the AFC championship game. If Parecells doesn't think he could win with Plummer, I have no reason to believe anyone could win with Plummer.
Parcells didn't want him in Dallas, and he's developed more QBs than Shanahan ever did. Shanahan inherited Elway
Your right Shanahan inherited Elway he was only his Offensive Coordinator from 1985-1987 then Quarterbacks Coach from 1989- 1991 clearly he didnt do anything to devople Elway. He was Offensive Coordinator for the 49ers from 1992-1994 and while there a guy named Young went to the Pro Bowl each year. so clearly he has no idea on how to devolpe a QB. lets see Elway has more regular season wins than in other Quarterback in the history of the game. and that young guy wasnt he the most prolific passer in history of the NFL while Shanahan was his OC.
But i guess if Parcels says its not possible it must not be after all he coached sims, vinny, and Bledsole. but wait thats odd only one of those guys has a ring both of Shanahan's guys got rings while he was working with them.........hmmmmm
Lets see since Shanahan started Coaching in the NFL (1985) his teams have been to the Superbowl 7 times played in the playoffs 12 times, played in Division Championship games 10 times and won 3 superbowls clearly this guy is overrated
Last edited by shake-n-bake; August 3rd, 2003 at 07:21 PM.
Originally posted by shake-n-bake Your right Shanahan inherited Elway he was only his Offensive Coordinator from 1985-1987 then Quarterbacks Coach from 1989- 1991 clearly he didnt do anything to devople Elway. He was Offensive Coordinator for the 49ers from 1992-1994 and while there a guy named Young went to the Pro Bowl each year. so clearly he has no idea on how to devolpe a QB. lets see Elway has more regular season wins than in other Quarterback in the history of the game. and that young guy wasnt he the most prolific passer in history of the NFL while Shanahan was his OC.
But i guess if Parcels says its not possible it must not be after all he coached sims, vinny, and Bledsole. but wait thats odd only one of those guys has a ring both of Shanahan's guys got rings while he was working with them.........hmmmmm
Lets see since Shanahan started Coaching in the NFL (1985) his teams have been to the Superbowl 7 times played in the playoffs 12 times, played in Division Championship games 10 times and won 3 superbowls clearly this guy is overrated
If Shanahan is so great, why didn't he develop a QB in Oakland so he wouldn't get fired as the head coach there?
I like how you said Shanahan developed Young as an offensive coordinator with the 49ers. Seems to me Shanahan inherited Young. Holmgren was the offensive coordinator there with Young before Shanahan coached Young. If you are going to bring offensive coordinators into this, seems to me Holmgren helped Young more than Shanahan. Holmgren also coached Young at BYU.
Shanahan was the one who gave Griese the big contract. You would think if Shanahan is so great, he would either have developed Griese or not offered him such a big contract in the first place to screw their cap space. Face it. Shanahan’s record as a head coach without Elway is nothing to brag about. If Shanahan didn’t inherit Elway, Shanahan would be just another average coach.
tell me did Holmgren ever lead Young to the superbowl....... nope your boy Holmgren hasnt devolped a qb since farve.(bad choice of coaches to compare him with) he did give griese alot of money and that was probably a mistake i guess no one can be perfect. I guess if an average coach has won more games than any other current head coach since 1995 he is indeed very average.
Last edited by shake-n-bake; August 3rd, 2003 at 07:49 PM.
Originally posted by shake-n-bake tell me did Holmgren ever lead Young to the superbowl.......nope he did give griese alot of money and that was probably a mistake i guess no one can be perfect. I guess if an average coach has won more games than any other current head coach since 1995 he is indeed very average.
Going back to 95 includes Elway. Take out the Elway years where he inherited the great QB and you'll find his record is only slightly better than .500.
And you forgot to answer my question, if Shanahan is so great, why didn't he develop a QB in Oakland so he wouldn't get fired as the head coach?
I have no idea but ill tell you this im gald he didnt becuase i hate the raiders. my guess would be it takes more than a season and 3 games to devople a QB
If Griese put up the numbers he put up in denver in arizona he would be one of the best all time quarterbacks to ever put on a cards uniform. And I dont think Griese got let go because of lack of production we were the 3rd ranked offense last season. I think it had more to do with some personal reasons.
but were getting off topic here. this was about why do quarterbacks not play well in arizona but do well playing for other teams.
no one has answerd my question which is what do you expect outta blake this year with the talent around him ?
Last edited by shake-n-bake; August 4th, 2003 at 11:23 AM.
...no one has answerd my question which is what do you expect outta blake this year with the talent around him ?
I think if Blake had last year's team, he would have put up a couple more wins than Plummer did. Blake makes less mistakes than Plummer. I don't know enough about all these new receivers to say how Blake will do with them.
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