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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #91
RugbyMuffin
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Originally Posted by MigratingOsprey View Post
except skilled workers get paid


you could have a family of skilled plumbers and they could hit $100k in household income

doctors add for their costs, correct?

owners are the vision, the drive and the financial risk taker when they come up with a new product.

those that can help them make that vision a reality will be compensated by the value they add to the process and how the product is valued in the marketplace

i went to a school that had a lot of engineers ..... i don't know any of them in my graduating class that are making less than $70k a year (most made that out of the gate)

i have two buddies who chose to forego engineering and become teachers

and even as lowly compensated as teachers are, a household with 2 teachers will usually be in excess of $80k in household income

the difference between $100k in household income and $150k in household income isn't that great
I dunno.

Maybe I should right a book. Because an extra 50k a year would allow for me to do so much more that it hurts my brain thinking about it.

Heck, if I made 10k more a year, I really would have no fincial worry. Where is all this money that people have going towards ? New Jersey is ridiculously expensive beyond what many would deem exceptable taxation, yet even with that situation, and being paid (what seems to be) lower than normal. I am able to make it work.

I couldn't imagine making 70k or more a year, and having financial problems of any sort.




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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:45 AM   #92
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i went to a school that had a lot of engineers ..... i don't know any of them in my graduating class that are making less than $70k a year (most made that out of the gate)
Hmmm.

Well, I am at quite the opposite. I graduated from a school with a lot of engineers. I have yet, to meet more than 4 or 5 out of the 25 I graduated with that make any where near 70k a year.

I would jump at the oppourtunity to make that kind of money.

Funny you should bring teaching into the equation. My wife who graduated with a biology degree is currently going to school to become a teacher so that she can make MORE money than she does now.

Hence, why I deem oppourtunity to be such a key in success. Both my wife an I are educated, hard working people. Never miss work, never late on bills, and trying to be as frugal as possible. We keep our ears open for "THE" oppourtunity.

Whether it comes or not is somewhat out of our hands. The country being in a recession more times than not since leaving school isn't helping either.

Ah whatever. As I said I think this discussion is over my head.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:50 AM   #93
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Wait, wait.

The WORKERS provide innovation, skilled labor, and products. The WORKERS build the product.

It is all the owner's vision, but he NEEDS the workers to accomplish his goal.

One mand doesn't build the yachts that the company I work for produces. The owner hires and pays his employees in return for thier skills to accomplish his goal.

There is a respect that should be given for those whose vision supplies jobs, and trade for said society. But without his employee's his vision is a doodle on a piece of paper.

As much as I need to be paid, is as much as my employor needs me to be a source of cheap electrical engineering/design.

The point being is that optimally we pay taxes because we know we must rely on others to have a functioning society, a society that allows for the innovation to flow, allows for us all to effeciently keep the world moving.

I can see how an arguement can be made for the owner putting more into society than say the average worker, but an arguement can be made that an owner cannot put anything into anything without said worker.

Can't have all cheifs and no indians.
Well yes and no. That's why I never understand the complaints against Microsoft, do people not realize how many millionaires were made by Microsoft? Not just their employees, others who started businesses that depended on Microsoft got rich too.

Lots of very rich people have created jobs for lots of less fortunate people, generally speaking it's the high wage people that create the most jobs.

If you tax them to death there's no incentive to take the risks they take and the result would be less job creation.

As it is now I stand to benefit from the Obama plan because it figures to be cheaper than Cobra which I'm on currently. That said I think taxing the rich at the rates he's proposing is wrong, it's a disincentive to achieve.

It seems he's counting on signing up millions into his plan which will reduce the medical charges by economies of scale, but he's not really sure that will work or not. It's entirely possible lots of people that don't have coverage now will flood the market going to the doctor over and over now that they have coverage. It's very difficult to plan for expenses like that they have no idea how common that will be.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:56 AM   #94
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Well yes and no. That's why I never understand the complaints against Microsoft, do people not realize how many millionaires were made by Microsoft? Not just their employees, others who started businesses that depended on Microsoft got rich too.

Lots of very rich people have created jobs for lots of less fortunate people, generally speaking it's the high wage people that create the most jobs.

If you tax them to death there's no incentive to take the risks they take and the result would be less job creation.

As it is now I stand to benefit from the Obama plan because it figures to be cheaper than Cobra which I'm on currently. That said I think taxing the rich at the rates he's proposing is wrong, it's a disincentive to achieve.

It seems he's counting on signing up millions into his plan which will reduce the medical charges by economies of scale, but he's not really sure that will work or not. It's entirely possible lots of people that don't have coverage now will flood the market going to the doctor over and over now that they have coverage. It's very difficult to plan for expenses like that they have no idea how common that will be.

Hard to make these points Russ to those who see the solutions to problems sitting inside the beltway... (not saying you fit into that mindset Rugby - though I'm not sure...).
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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:56 AM   #95
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Lots of very rich people have created jobs for lots of less fortunate people, generally speaking it's the high wage people that create the most jobs.

If you tax them to death there's no incentive to take the risks they take and the result would be less job creation.
Agreed.

But the arguement also can be made that if you tax the lower class to death you are trying to get blood from stone.

Some will give once the consumers you rely upon can no longer consume. Not to mention a wage is no good if it cannot buy anything.

What good is 30k if it takes 35k to keep the most bargin basement frugal lifestyle afloat in said society.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:05 PM   #96
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And for a family (husband,wife and kids), many would say that $120k is not nearly enough...
I agree, how would I pay for my McMansion, my two SUVs, jet skis, my 3 kid's (under 12 years old) cell phone bills, my annual trips to the wine country and the Florida Keys. Not to mention supporting my wife's Ebay addiction and my fine wine collection that is getting pretty respectible.

I wouldn't even begin to margianlize how someone could live on a paultry $120,000. This country has lost its priorities
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:07 PM   #97
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I dunno.

Maybe I should right a book. Because an extra 50k a year would allow for me to do so much more that it hurts my brain thinking about it.

Heck, if I made 10k more a year, I really would have no fincial worry. Where is all this money that people have going towards ? New Jersey is ridiculously expensive beyond what many would deem exceptable taxation, yet even with that situation, and being paid (what seems to be) lower than normal. I am able to make it work.

I couldn't imagine making 70k or more a year, and having financial problems of any sort.
You don't have a wife and children?
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:12 PM   #98
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Hard to make these points Russ to those who see the solutions to problems sitting inside the beltway... (not saying you fit into that mindset Rugby - though I'm not sure...).
Don't blame you for being unsure. I am a bit of a flip flopper, sometimes I come from the right, sometimes the left. Most of the times, I am useless

There is a validity to the points Russ makes, 82. I have yet to say anything against that. There is a valid complaint to what is happening with this 58% tax. No doubt.

Thanks for the new term but I do not believe the solutions to our problem are "sitting inside the beltway". Our government does a glorious job of screwing up everything they touch, and stealing a massive amount of money from our own pockets. (I can talk about corruption but that goes way OT).

While I believe that every US CITIZEN, that pays taxes, and all of their taxes should be medically cared for, I certainly do not have faith that Washington knows what to do.

Just to remind you, you are talking to a person who would LOVE for our federal government to downsize, for local (state) governments to have more power.


But the topic of discussion on this thread is one of tax brackets, and who should be paying what.

My debate is not FOR some ridiculously unfair, uncalled for tax increase that is completely screwing one tax bracket.

My debate and arguements are for the fact that I feel the government has NO idea what the average person in this country earns, and what he can sustain with what he earns.

As well as that a person who earns more, should give more back. That no matter what we all benefit from society. How ever you get to your current position, is not the point. The point is you are getting this much out, and should put this much in.

And if I were running the show that would be the case, but it would be fairly distributed (as SWD showed, by way of a percentage or something logical like that).

A balance must be made. You can't tax the hell out of the have's because it kills innovation, and grow. You can't tax the hell out of the have not's cause they already don't have anything. Your consumers cannot consume, and they cannot "live" either thus creating the dead wieght effect of "welfare for life" citizen who is constantly writing a check he can't cash. (and it ain't for a new TV 90% of the time, it is for medical expenses).

Tomorrow, I will write up a thread, on how I think this all should be handled. Give it a read, tell me what you think.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:13 PM   #99
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You don't have a wife and children?
Got a wife. Can't afford to have a kid.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #100
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Agreed.

But the arguement also can be made that if you tax the lower class to death you are trying to get blood from stone.

Some will give once the consumers you rely upon can no longer consume. Not to mention a wage is no good if it cannot buy anything.

What good is 30k if it takes 35k to keep the most bargin basement frugal lifestyle afloat in said society.
But our taxes have been reduced not increased until now. The "rich" already pay a higher percentage of total tax revenue. I have no problem with increasing taxes, but do it across the board fairly.

But then I'm very much in the flat tax camp and I know everytime that comes up we're told it would cost too many jobs(no need for the IRS or tax preparers).
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:25 PM   #101
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BTW: If you live in Arizona there is a rabid Cards fan who is a whiz with taxes and a member of this board. If you and your wife get to the point you need a good tax adviser, and if she's in Grad school you probably will, PM me and I'll give you his company name. Great guy too. Even 40year likes him.
Appreciate it, but I'm in Arkansas now.


BTW, the surtax the house Democrats proposed, is for all intents, dead.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #102
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True, but effective tax rate is what matters to me, no? As for the employer portion of SS, it's only theory that I would see that income should it not be allocated to the government.



First year I owned my home and was married with a wife in graduate school. I had no idea what kind of tax situation I was looking at.
He's just joshing you DW. Looks like you have yourself set up pretty well. Makes me feel good to know that the American dream is still being realized.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #103
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Looks like the scare tactics are out in force.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:30 PM   #104
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amazing how they can take hold when legitimate questions are left with no answers

like, how is this getting paid for again?!
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #105
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It seems to me in this whole debate I personally can see a pattern, IMO of course.

The pattern is that people have come to rely on government to regulate their quality of life, jobs, health care, schooling, consumer laws, now banking and now autos.

Folks, I'm the first to say that you can and should treat health care differently but see the problem is that we've ALREADY gone down the path of letting government into everything.

In the 1800's when this nation really started getting built, the Federal government didn't give you squat but an army and some trade rules.

Now it's morphing into your employer, your education, your economic guru, your nest egg provider, your watchdog, your doctor and soon it's going to mandate your carbon emissions.

I'd like government to get out of a ton of things before it gets into healthcare, the path is unsustainable, it's a path to state control of your life.
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