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My understanding is that Israel did it in two stages -- the first ten years while they studied the effect on cohesion, gays couldn't be in sayaret commando units, intelligence, or similar smaller-unit specialty programs. Let it be said, Israel definitely has its share of raging homophobes. Also that they prize and study unit cohesion more than most military.
After they studied it to death and discovered the biggest negative on unit cohesion were incompetent or personality-disordered officers, and that being Gay (or Arab, or Ethiopian) had no measurable effect on unit cohesion, they threw everything open to Gays. In the twenty years since, there have been no cohesion problems attributed to Gays in the military in commando units, intelligence, or anywhere else.
Gays do complain that there are biases in the system in terms of promotions, etc (so do Ethiopians, Druze, Beduins, Russians, women, and everyone else -- including ultra-orthodox Jews and secular Israelis). And the conservative religious and political groups complain bitterly that Gay military integration has increased acceptance and tolerance for homosexuality (insert the fire, brimstone, etc of your religious preference here) in the society at large.
I'll be in Israel next week, and am meeting with some military psychologists and former soldiers, so I'll ask what the real story is about women and about Gays.
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oderint dum metuant (Latin for 'let them hate, so long as they fear').
Well, in truth I'm actually not a total hawk, but I'm not a dove either -- I'm more like an angry pigeon flying over the political arena after a really big meal. -Abba Gav
I'll be in Israel next week, and am meeting with some military psychologists and former soldiers, so I'll ask what the real story is about women and about Gays.
Be safe. girl!!!
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Here's to the Army and Navy and the battles they have won; here's to America's colors, the colors that never run. May the wings of liberty never lose a feather. ....
LOL -- yeah, I read this yesterday and thought, "OK, I am REALLY glad to know it's just a drill..."
Quote:
Later this month, the police, Home Front Command branch of IDF, Magen David Adom, the Fire and Rescue Service and other emergency services will participate in a massive unprecedented exercise during which sirens will be activated nationwide. It will drill the services and their response to a major missile attack.
Then I thought -- do they ever do anything remotely like that in the USA? Chris, you know that stuff -- do we do any serious drills on a large scale? After last summer they are totally overhauling not only the military, but their entire civil defense/response system from top to bottom. Or at least so they say.
Back to topic -- Chris, are there Gay firemen that others know about? If so, is it a problem? If not, how does it work?
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oderint dum metuant (Latin for 'let them hate, so long as they fear').
Well, in truth I'm actually not a total hawk, but I'm not a dove either -- I'm more like an angry pigeon flying over the political arena after a really big meal. -Abba Gav
Currently we are forced to seperate soldiers from their families with such back draft procedures as stop-loss. Hardship tours have become common and destroy soldier morale far more than knowing someone in your unit likes guys.
Turning away capable people during recruiting slumps based on sexual preference is foolish and wasteful.
Currently we are forced to seperate soldiers from their families with such back draft procedures as stop-loss. Hardship tours have become common and destroy soldier morale far more than knowing someone in your unit likes guys.
Turning away capable people during recruiting slumps based on sexual preference is foolish and wasteful.
Well I'm sorry but that's your opinion and not the opinion of the average soldier out there in the field.
But that's just my opinion, don't kill the messenger.
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Bob Melvin is an idiot. Period.
Kim was asking me earlier what was the foundation of this opinion of gays among the military.
The best way I could explain it was by asking her a simple question.
I said this: Imagine you are in an open bay shower (this scenario is quite common in the military) with 30 other women. You are washing each other's boobies or whatever I like to think it is that women do in showers and all of a sudden a naked man walks in to join you all.
What do you do?
What is the first thing that comes to mind that all of you women would do?
The answer is simple: You feel embarrased and try to cover up.
What makes this situation ANY DIFFERENT if an openly gay male walks into the shower with 30 guys.
He has a physical attraction to males the same as heteros have a physical attraction to females.
I'M SORRY BUT THE MILITARY MORESO THAN ANY OTHER OCCUPATION PUTS INDIVIDUALS IN INTIMATE SITUATIONS.
The appeasement for the few at the expense of the many isn't worth it.
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Bob Melvin is an idiot. Period.
There are already guys in the shower who like guys. Half the gay guys I know are ex-military (usually Air Force suprisingly. I would have guessed Navy).
When I go to the gym and take a shower, there are probably gay guys in the gym shower too. Ultimately it doesn't effect me because I don't like guys. I am certainly not worried about "catching gay" in the shower.
Anyway it would be women showering with women who like women. No men involved. And those women would already know that the women who like women are supposed to be in the shower with them. I suppose it doesn't really matter, I just think the "don't ask, don't tell" thing is a little comical.
What makes this situation ANY DIFFERENT if an openly gay male walks into the shower with 30 guys.
Different parts vs. same parts. I would have a LOT less issue with a gay woman seeing me naked than a straight man. Probably shouldn't be different, but it is.
The point I think you are missing is that in your scenarios no one is OPENLY gay.
As a matter of fact I'd be willing to bet money that when you are in the shower at the gym you are assuming the individuals around you are hetero.
Also, the guys in the shower in the gym are not people who you live, eat, laugh, and cry with. Hell, I'd be willing to bet you don't even know their names.
It's not that guys in the military can't be friends with gay people. Hell, I consider Jon one of my best and closest friends on this board. It's not that I think that a gay person can't do the job as well as me.....in fact there are plenty who could do it better.
It's just that the military is a different world than the civilian one and people are forced into much more intimate situations than you would ever find in the civilian world.
BTW- no one is worried about "catching gay". That was an ignorant comment.
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Bob Melvin is an idiot. Period.
There are already guys in the shower who like guys. Half the gay guys I know are ex-military (usually Air Force suprisingly. I would have guessed Navy).
When I go to the gym and take a shower, there are probably gay guys in the gym shower too. Ultimately it doesn't effect me because I don't like guys. I am certainly not worried about "catching gay" in the shower.
Anyway it would be women showering with women who like women. No men involved. And those women would already know that the women who like women are supposed to be in the shower with them. I suppose it doesn't really matter, I just think the "don't ask, don't tell" thing is a little comical.
Suprisingly???
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Bob Melvin is an idiot. Period.
The last thing I am thinking of in the shower is whether or not the guy next to me is gay or straight. I don't care if they are gay or straight. I didn't care when I was in the Army and I don't care at the gym.
The catching gay comment is because I can't fathom why anyone would care about a gay guy being in the shower. It is rooted in something as rediculous as "catching gay". Any gay guy who is attracted to a guy is likely going to be checking him out in the shower regardless of in the closet or out.
Does it somehow make it more reassuring that Private Bob is looking at your weiner when you think he is straight?
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