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Old August 14th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #1
se7en
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World's largest solar power plant to be built by 2010 in California...


If it weren't for the progressiveness of California, the rest of the country would never think about electric/hybrid cars, banning smoking in restaurants/bars and now forcing electric companies to generate 20% of their power from renewable resources.

This just shows why many industries must continue to be strictly regulated and progressive ideas must be mandated by government. Our lives are better for these “forced” advancements.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/bu...nterstitial?hp

Two California companies said Thursday that they would each build solar power plants that were 10 times bigger than the largest now in service, creating the first true utility-scale use of a technology now mostly confined to rooftop supplements to conventional power supplies.

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The solar power will be sold to Pacific Gas and Electric, which is under a state mandate to get 20 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2010. The utility said that it expected the plants, both using photovoltaic technology, which turns sunlight directly into electricity, would be competitive with other renewable sources, including wind and solar thermal, which uses the sun’s heat to boil water.

Solar power is more costly than wind, watt for watt, experts say, but delivers the energy at a time of day when electricity prices are higher and is more valuable even if it is more costly.

OptiSolar, a company that has just begun to make thin-film solar panels — with a layer of semiconductor material thinner than a human hair on the back of a glass panel — will install 550 megawatts in San Luis Obispo County, in central California. And the SunPower Corporation, which uses crystalline cells, will build 250 megawatts in the same county. The OptiSolar plant will cover about nine square miles and the SunPower plant about 3.5, although the actual cell area will be smaller.

They will total 800 megawatts. A megawatt is enough power to run a large Wal-Mart. At peak hours, together the plants will produce as much power as a large coal plant or a small nuclear reactor. But they will run far fewer hours of the year so output will be at least a third less than that of a coal plant of the same size.

The scale of the California announcement makes it “pretty significant,” said Robert J. Thormeyer, a spokesman for the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, whose members sit on the state public utility commissions.

But such developments are only possible in states that have ambitious quotas for renewable power and have good sun, he said. “It’s hard to say if it’s something we’ll see replicated in other states,” he said. But “it opens up a door.”

The chairman of SunPower, Thomas H. Werner, said the 250 megawatts that his company would build was as much solar photovoltaic capacity as was installed worldwide last year.

At OptiSolar, the chief executive, Randy Goldstein, said, “There is really no point in doing this on small scale.”

“If you’re going to make a difference, you’ve got to do it big,” Mr. Goldstein said in a telephone interview.

The largest current installation in the United States is at Nellis Air Force Base, in Nevada, with 14 megawatts, also built by SunPower. Spain has one completed plant at 23 megawatts. A German company, Juwi, has a 40-megawatt installation east of Leipzig. Florida Power and Light recently ordered a 25-megawatt plant.

Solar energy, both photovoltaic and thermal, which uses the sun’s heat to make steam, is bounding ahead, driven mostly by state quotas. California requires that 20 percent of the kilowatt-hours sold by investor-owned utilities come from renewable sources by 2010, a goal that some companies are struggling to meet. Pacific Gas and Electric expects that when these two solar plants are completed, its total will rise to 24 percent, but that will not be until 2013.

Both plants would require a variety of permits.

The planned California installations raise questions about the idea that solar power is best deployed on the roofs of houses and businesses. Although they can help avoid transmission expenses when built near load, the companies said that by building on a gargantuan scale, they expected to achieve economies of scale in the cost of design, installation and connection to the grid, as well as marketing and overhead. A typical home installation is several thousandths of a megawatt, while these are in the hundreds of megawatts.

The prices are not clear. The companies said their contracts did not allow them to talk about the price, and a spokeswoman for Pacific Gas and Electric said her company was trying to obtain the best possible deal for its ratepayers by not disclosing the contracts and not telling other suppliers of renewable energy what it was willing to pay.

According to the California Energy Commission, last year the price of power from a solar photovoltaic installation was 70.5 cents a kilowatt-hour, roughly six times the national average retail rate for residential power. But both OptiSolar and SunPower said their costs were much lower.

SunPower’s panels are mounted at a 20-degree angle, facing south, and pivot over the course of the day, so they face the sun. OptiSolar’s panels are installed at a fixed angle. They are larger and less efficient, but much less costly, so that the cost per watt of energy is similar, company executives said.

Both are good at producing power at the time of day when prices tend to be high, in the afternoon.

Neither approaches the economy of fossil-fuel burning plants, said Jennifer Zerwer, a spokeswoman for Pacific Gas and Electric. But they are competitive with wind power and with power from solar thermal plants.

And prices will eventually fall, she said.
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Old August 14th, 2008, 06:06 PM   #2
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12 square miles of land??



To power the country, we'd have to cover every square inch.
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Old August 14th, 2008, 07:21 PM   #3
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Jon picked up on the key point which is how much land it takes.

The other point I didn't see in the article(I may have just missed it) is PG&E is publicly saying this will only happen if the state extends a program that gives tax breaks to businesses that build alternative energy into new buildings, in this case the entire plant would qualify for huge tax breaks and rebates. The spokesman said if those benefits are not extended, this project won't be finished.
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Old August 14th, 2008, 10:15 PM   #4
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"TWELVE SQUARE MILES!?"

You ever driven through the coal mining areas of West Virginia? 12 Sq. miles -- big effing deal.



Quote:
Joseph Cory's helium balloons made from fabric coated with photovoltaic (PV) solar cells. These balloons are much cheaper to build and install than existing solar panels, and also take up far less room, which is significant in an urban environment.
Quote:
Orionsolar's nano-sized titanium oxide cells are coated with an organic dye engineered to react when hit by sunlight to produce energy more efficiently, effectively, and cheaply, and at lower light than current solar systems.
Quote:
According to the company, which is involved in solar projects in Spain and California, a solar thermal plant built on just one percent of the surface of the Sahara Desert could provide the entire world's electricity demands.
Great. First the Arabs have the oil, next they have the sun and open space.

But the point is, there is a lot of active research on reducing the land-span needed (Oceans, anyone?), but until there is considerable pressure to build more solar, the resources won't flow to the folks trying to reduce the territorial impact.
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Last edited by AZZenny; August 14th, 2008 at 10:19 PM.
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Old August 14th, 2008, 11:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Dback Jon View Post
12 square miles of land??



To power the country, we'd have to cover every square inch.
12 square miles of surface that reflects the sun's heat and it's a mouthful of spit for the energy it produces. I question the heat-island effect it will have.

But clearly, California being the early adopters means they'll pay for the R&D while the rest of us who wait will pay a good chunk more for more efficient solar plants.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 02:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaddabout View Post
12 square miles of surface that reflects the sun's heat and it's a mouthful of spit for the energy it produces. I question the heat-island effect it will have.

But clearly, California being the early adopters means they'll pay for the R&D while the rest of us who wait will pay a good chunk more for more efficient solar plants.
Arizona will have the second largest, only covering 3 square miles. 280 megawatts. That Cali plant is really big though.

http://www.aps.com/main/green/Solana/facts.html

It will be interesting to see the solar and wind power plants as we move into the 20-teens.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 04:23 AM   #7
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Cool. Stick them in the desert. Those are growing like weeds.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 06:44 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dback Jon View Post
12 square miles of land??



To power the country, we'd have to cover every square inch.
Someone actually ran the numbers on this, it's something like 3% of the greater Southwest land area, which would include So Cal, AZ, and So NV.

The key to this type of technology is to find a way to make it work at night (don't snicker - there are some good plans on the table, but trying to figure out a material that doesn't degrade under high pressure liquid sodium is a real pain) - then the costs come down a fair amount.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 08:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZenny View Post
"TWELVE SQUARE MILES!?"

You ever driven through the coal mining areas of West Virginia? 12 Sq. miles -- big effing deal.







Great. First the Arabs have the oil, next they have the sun and open space.

But the point is, there is a lot of active research on reducing the land-span needed (Oceans, anyone?), but until there is considerable pressure to build more solar, the resources won't flow to the folks trying to reduce the territorial impact.

If that company is correct why in the world didn't California go with them on this plant? It says they do business in California if their solar cells are that much more efficient I can't fathom why they weren't picked to do this plant.

They were talking about this on the local news last night PG&E is insistent that people need to realize without the tax breaks this won't happen. They've signed a deal to buy power from these 2 plants but if the taxbreaks aren't extended, the plants won't be built.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 08:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Arizona will have the second largest, only covering 3 square miles. 280 megawatts. That Cali plant is really big though.

http://www.aps.com/main/green/Solana/facts.html

It will be interesting to see the solar and wind power plants as we move into the 20-teens.
My company hooked up a goodly portion of those solar panels.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 08:28 AM   #11
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A big problem with solar energy is the cost versus the return. That's why all these companies depend on federal monies to help them build these sites. The efficiency just isn't there yet to make solar economically feasible. Thanks to the space program, these cells are more efficient that they used to be, but they haven't gotten to where we need them to be for this to be a viable source of energy.

Hopefully, we will see a break through in the technology to make this a major source of energy.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 08:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
A big problem with solar energy is the cost versus the return. That's why all these companies depend on federal monies to help them build these sites. The efficiency just isn't there yet to make solar economically feasible. Thanks to the space program, these cells are more efficient that they used to be, but they haven't gotten to where we need them to be for this to be a viable source of energy.

Hopefully, we will see a break through in the technology to make this a major source of energy.
There's actually a lot of science that says they never will be efficient enough that it's impossible for them to be efficient enough.

That company Zenny mentioned if they're correct they're doing something that not that long ago was thought to be impossible so I sure hope they're right but as I asked if they are right, why in the world did California not pick them to build these plants?
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Old August 15th, 2008, 09:29 AM   #13
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12 square miles of land??
Put them on golf courses so we can finally do something usefull with that land.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 10:47 AM   #14
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12 square miles of land??



To power the country, we'd have to cover every square inch.
Why not just put one on everyone's roof instead of building a ginormous plant?

I really think that these huge solar power plants are a mistake. Individual home units seem to make more sense, especially here in the Valley of the Sun.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #15
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Why not just put one on everyone's roof instead of building a ginormous plant?

I really think that these huge solar power plants are a mistake. Individual home units seem to make more sense, especially here in the Valley of the Sun.
From the article.

"Both plants would require a variety of permits.

The planned California installations raise questions about the idea that solar power is best deployed on the roofs of houses and businesses. Although they can help avoid transmission expenses when built near load, the companies said that by building on a gargantuan scale, they expected to achieve economies of scale in the cost of design, installation and connection to the grid, as well as marketing and overhead. A typical home installation is several thousandths of a megawatt, while these are in the hundreds of megawatts.

The prices are not clear. The companies said their contracts did not allow them to talk about the price, and a spokeswoman for Pacific Gas and Electric said her company was trying to obtain the best possible deal for its ratepayers by not disclosing the contracts and not telling other suppliers of renewable energy what it was willing to pay. "

They also quoted the CEO of Optisolar saying small installations make no sense.

I really disagree I think they make great sense the problem is they need lots of them to get that "economies of scale" thing moving so that the unit price comes down and people can afford to do small installs.

Big installs make sense now because of all the rebates and tax incentives they get.

They should install solar panels over the melting ice in the arctic and use the electricity they get to refreeze the ice!

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