World's largest solar power plant to be built by 2010 in California... - Page 2

Heucrazy · August 15th, 2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivercard

Put them on golf courses so we can finally do something usefull with that land.

But we already do....we play golf and drink beer.

Heucrazy · August 15th, 2008, 01:04 PM

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If it weren't for the progressiveness of California, the rest of the country would never think about electric/hybrid cars, banning smoking in restaurants/bars and now forcing electric companies to generate 20% of their power from renewable resources.

This just shows why many industries must continue to be strictly regulated and progressive ideas must be mandated by government. Our lives are better for these “forced” advancements.

Another example of the arrogance that is part of the spreading disease which is Californians.

Here's an idea if you want to do it in California then go ahead and do it. But if it's so great then stay in California. Don't move to other states and force your way of thinking onto others by being the loudest whiners until you get your way.

God I hate Californians.

(San Diego and her denizens are exempt from my above rant)

se7en · August 15th, 2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heucrazy

Another example of the arrogance that is part of the spreading disease which is Californians.

Here's an idea if you want to do it in California then go ahead and do it. But if it's so great then stay in California. Don't move to other states and force your way of thinking onto others by being the loudest whiners until you get your way.

God I hate Californians.

(San Diego and her denizens are exempt from my above rant)

I guess you hate strict pollution controls, more fuel efficient cars, smoke-free restaurants, medical marijuana, gay marriage, the hands free cell phone driving law – and hey, where do you think most of the porn is produced… LOL…

Russ Smith · August 15th, 2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heucrazy

Another example of the arrogance that is part of the spreading disease which is Californians.

Here's an idea if you want to do it in California then go ahead and do it. But if it's so great then stay in California. Don't move to other states and force your way of thinking onto others by being the loudest whiners until you get your way.

God I hate Californians.

(San Diego and her denizens are exempt from my above rant)

To be fair, California isn't forcing solar power on any other states. They're just forcing it on California.

I otherwise agree with much of what you said about California.

coyoteshockeyfan · August 15th, 2008, 03:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Donald

Arizona will have the second largest, only covering 3 square miles. 280 megawatts. That Cali plant is really big though.

http://www.aps.com/main/green/Solana/facts.html

It will be interesting to see the solar and wind power plants as we move into the 20-teens.

The intriguing thing about Solana is that it does not use the photovoltaic cells that most people associate with solar power, it is a concentrating solar thermal plant. This type of solar plant is used more in Spain than pretty much elsewhere in the world (and Solana is being constructed by the Spanish company Abengoa), so it will be interesting to see how much interest this will spark in other areas.

AZZenny · August 17th, 2008, 06:42 PM

Russ, I believe the nano-tech part is currently 'Beta' and still being trial-run at meaningful scale, and the solar balloons (which I love!) are still in pre-production refinement last I read. I know a couple larger Israeli companies are working with APS and SRP on solar (and also on algae-based biofuel) programs. They also consult with the Spaniards and Chinese on a lot of their projects.

Hunh -- looks like they're a major piece of the PG & E project. http://web.israel21c.net/bin/en.jsp?...ne=Technology& Supposedly Israel is building the world's largest solar plant in the Negev desert, but seems like it's been under constant revision for 2-3 years as new technology changes the parameters and possibilities almost week by week. That's one of the drawbacks of such a rapidly changing field, I guess.

WE should be leading the way in this stuff.

coyoteshockeyfan · August 17th, 2008, 07:30 PM

I have no idea why the video claims that that's the "World's first solar thermal field," as those have existed since at least the early 80s.

Gaddabout · August 17th, 2008, 08:06 PM

My wife's out of town and I just watched about 50 hours of Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis this week. I'm a firm believer that we should fire up the Stargate and go looking for ZPM.

Now I'm going to go watch No Country for Old Men to reset the reality button. Yeesh.

lvgentleman · August 18th, 2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaddabout

My wife's out of town and I just watched about 50 hours of Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis this week. I'm a firm believer that we should fire up the Stargate and go looking for ZPM.

would like to come along.

40yearfan · August 18th, 2008, 05:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Folster

Why not just put one on everyone's roof instead of building a ginormous plant?

I really think that these huge solar power plants are a mistake. Individual home units seem to make more sense, especially here in the Valley of the Sun.

It won't work Folster. You can't get enough electricity to power that house off of just solar cells and the cost would be prohibitive to try and tie a hundred million solar cell installations into the power grid. The only thing that will work are these solar farms. The question is are they cost efficient? The answer is no, not at this time. That's why they have to have government money involved in these installations. This is probably the most ineffcient alternative fuel system.

40yearfan · August 18th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZZenny

Russ, I believe the nano-tech part is currently 'Beta' and still being trial-run at meaningful scale, and the solar balloons (which I love!) are still in pre-production refinement last I read. I know a couple larger Israeli companies are working with APS and SRP on solar (and also on algae-based biofuel) programs. They also consult with the Spaniards and Chinese on a lot of their projects.

Hunh -- looks like they're a major piece of the PG & E project. http://web.israel21c.net/bin/en.jsp?...ne=Technology& Supposedly Israel is building the world's largest solar plant in the Negev desert, but seems like it's been under constant revision for 2-3 years as new technology changes the parameters and possibilities almost week by week. That's one of the drawbacks of such a rapidly changing field, I guess.

WE should be leading the way in this stuff.

AZZ, I think those ballons are neat also. I wonder if they have a mechanism to bring them down and store them during a major thunderstorm?

coyoteshockeyfan · August 18th, 2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40yearfan

It won't work Folster. You can't get enough electricity to power that house off of just solar cells and the cost would be prohibitive to try and tie a hundred million solar cell installations into the power grid. The only thing that will work are these solar farms. The question is are they cost efficient? The answer is no, not at this time. That's why they have to have government money involved in these installations. This is probably the most ineffcient alternative fuel system.

Rooftop solar panels can and will work. The reason why solar cells are currently cost prohibitive has nothing to do with not being able to power an entire house (although it some circumstances it can) or tying it to the electrical grid. In fact, that's the cheap part of the operation as rooftop solar panels have fewer transmission and distribution costs due to not needing to send the energy over hundreds (or thousands) of miles worth of transmission lines. Utilities are required by federal law to allow customers to connect small scale alternative energy sources to the their local grid, and for PV panels or wind turbines the process is fairly simple.

That's not to say that the large scale farms don't have their advantages as they do, but it isn't the only way to go. The first obvious advantage that these power plant sized fields have is economies of scale during the manufacturing and installation. Secondly, and just as important in my mind, the large scale plants lend themselves more naturally toward solar concentration techniques (for both solar thermal and PV cell setups) that are difficult to achieve with local generation due to the added weight and (in most cases) solar tracking requirements. The reality is that both methods hold plenty of promise and are going to dramatically increase in viability and use over the next decade and beyond.

The large costs today for solar cells are due to the manufacturing of the material (more so in first generation or "traditional" solar cells) or the material cost itself (more so in the second generation or "thin film" solar cells). You're right in that it usually requires government money to get the ball rolling, but the cost per unit of energy for solar has sunk considerably over the last decade or so when comparing to fossil fuels (and people seem to forget that coal and the like get subsidies as well), and will continue to do so with the amount of attention the subject to receiving.

40yearfan · August 18th, 2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyoteshockeyfan

Rooftop solar panels can and will work. The reason why solar cells are currently cost prohibitive has nothing to do with not being able to power an entire house (although it some circumstances it can) or tying it to the electrical grid. In fact, that's the cheap part of the operation as rooftop solar panels have fewer transmission and distribution costs due to not needing to send the energy over hundreds (or thousands) of miles worth of transmission lines. Utilities are required by federal law to allow customers to connect small scale alternative energy sources to the their local grid, and for PV panels or wind turbines the process is fairly simple.

That's not to say that the large scale farms don't have their advantages as they do, but it isn't the only way to go. The first obvious advantage that these power plant sized fields have is economies of scale during the manufacturing and installation. Secondly, and just as important in my mind, the large scale plants lend themselves more naturally toward solar concentration techniques (for both solar thermal and PV cell setups) that are difficult to achieve with local generation due to the added weight and (in most cases) solar tracking requirements. The reality is that both methods hold plenty of promise and are going to dramatically increase in viability and use over the next decade and beyond.

The large costs today for solar cells are due to the manufacturing of the material (more so in first generation or "traditional" solar cells) or the material cost itself (more so in the second generation or "thin film" solar cells). You're right in that it usually requires government money to get the ball rolling, but the cost per unit of energy for solar has sunk considerably over the last decade or so when comparing to fossil fuels (and people seem to forget that coal and the like get subsidies as well), and will continue to do so with the amount of attention the subject to receiving.

I guess they must have some new things in place since I was involved. It used to take whole roof of solar cells just to power the water heater.

What I was talking about was tying all the individual homes solar panels together and then tying into the grid. It takes some very expensive equipment to do this.

coyoteshockeyfan · August 18th, 2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40yearfan

I guess they must have some new things in place since I was involved. It used to take whole roof of solar cells just to power the water heater.

What I was talking about was tying all the individual homes solar panels together and then tying into the grid. It takes some very expensive equipment to do this.

Why would you tie all of the solar panels from each house together? That can be (and is) done at the local household level.

40yearfan · August 18th, 2008, 07:50 PM

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Originally Posted by coyoteshockeyfan

Why would you tie all of the solar panels from each house together? That can be (and is) done at the local household level.

I wouldn't. That was Folster's idea.