Welcome to ASFN Fan Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's memorandum musing about the direction of the war on terrorism has been criticized for the wrong reasons.
Rumsfeld's description of Afghanistan and Iraq as "a long, hard slog" has been seized upon as contradicting the sunnier assessments the Bush administration has been peddling hard these days.
Certainly this is fair game, as it has been for the Bush administration to point out the positive developments in both countries that have received little coverage from the media.
But far more important are the big-think questions the Rumsfeld memo asks about the future direction of the war on terrorism.
Basically, Rumsfeld was asking his top aides to ponder whether the U.S. government, and particularly the Department of Defense, is structured appropriately to best wage this war.
As the memo points out, the United States has certain disadvantages in the war as it is being conducted. "The cost-benefit ratio is against us," Rumsfeld declared. "Our cost is billions against the terrorists' cost of millions."
Moreover, it is difficult to know "if we are winning or losing the global war on terror.
"Are we capturing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?
"Is our current situation such that 'the harder we work, the behinder we get'?"
These are very good questions. And the preliminary evidence is not encouraging.
The Taliban is frequently described as "regrouping" in Afghanistan. But much of the increased militant Islamic fighting capability in that country appears to be coming from new recruits, primarily from Pakistan.
The attacks in the Sunni areas in Iraq, rather than abating, are growing in frequency, sophistication and lethality.
Given the difficulties well captured in Rumsfeld's succinct memo, it is unfortunate, but not surprising, that he did not ask the most important question of all: Is there something the United States can do to make itself less of a target for global terrorism?
Not surprising that it was unasked, because that question, although hugely important, challenges the interventionist foreign policy assumptions that govern both political parties.
Ever since the Suez Canal crisis in 1956, the United States has sought to be the dominant influence in the Middle East.
And what has this interventionist foreign policy accomplished?
We supported a shah and got an ayatollah.
We sided with Saddam Hussein against Iran in the 1980s, and then went to war against him in 1991 and 2003.
We helped bring Yasser Arafat to power close to Israel's heart.
The region is now a seething caldron of anti-Americanism, we're spending $165 billion on military actions with no end in sight, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is bloodier than ever.
The United States represents values and a culture that are anathema to militant Islamists. We would be an object of their ire in any case.
But the United States is trying to control events in their own lands, to their detriment. That changes us from an anathema to an enemy.
The interventionist foreign policy of the United States has made us more of a terrorist target. And becoming less interventionist would make us less of a target.
The United States certainly benefits from the spread of freedom, democracy and market economies around the world. But there is little evidence that U.S. pressure for such in the Middle East is a winning strategy.
In fact, Arab scholars trying to create a pathway to modernity, working under the auspices of the United Nations, clearly think otherwise. In their second report, issued Monday, they describe an internal, organic transformation, rather than "efforts to restructure the region from outside."
The United States would be safer and more secure extricating itself from the snake pit of Middle Eastern geopolitics and letting these organic transformations find their own path. The Arab world will have to adjust to modernity or find itself slipping further behind.
It is good that Rumsfeld is asking some of the big-think questions about the war on terrorism. It would be better if someone in Washington was asking the most important big-think question of all
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
The internal, organic transformation mentioned...I believe it to be largely a pipe dream in that region. There will always be the radical clerics and their followers who control by death and hatred. The oil money...well it will never see the everyday people of those countries. And they will all continue to hate Israel and hope for their destruction...which will force the US to keep a presence in the Middle East politically which of course leads us back to where we are now.
The only way I can see this transformation happening is if one country in the MIddle East falls into the capitalistic way of life (read American) and the people of that country are so well off that it is noticed by the populations of surrounding countries. That is how the revolution will occur.
Maybe I am too pessimistic about the region. The death in Iraq...well it is going to get worse from here. The enemy is clearly becoming more organized and unless the Army can somehow get the upper heand, there will be more "foreigners" who come to Iraq to expell the invader and kill some as well.
__________________
Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean
Originally posted by AZCB34 The internal, organic transformation mentioned...I believe it to be largely a pipe dream in that region. There will always be the radical clerics and their followers who control by death and hatred. The oil money...well it will never see the everyday people of those countries. And they will all continue to hate Israel and hope for their destruction...which will force the US to keep a presence in the Middle East politically which of course leads us back to where we are now.
The only way I can see this transformation happening is if one country in the MIddle East falls into the capitalistic way of life (read American) and the people of that country are so well off that it is noticed by the populations of surrounding countries. That is how the revolution will occur.
Maybe I am too pessimistic about the region. The death in Iraq...well it is going to get worse from here. The enemy is clearly becoming more organized and unless the Army can somehow get the upper heand, there will be more "foreigners" who come to Iraq to expell the invader and kill some as well.
I agree with you. I just posted the article to show a different view, you know, to be "fair and balanced" (copyright Fox News).
Jordan would be a country that we should put effort into. Jordan is "more" free than many of the countries in that region, and if we pumped a little money into them, that country could do reasonably well.
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Originally posted by Krangthebrain I agree with you. I just posted the article to show a different view, you know, to be "fair and balanced" (copyright Fox News).
Jordan would be a country that we should put effort into. Jordan is "more" free than many of the countries in that region, and if we pumped a little money into them, that country could do reasonably well.
IS Jordan an oil country? From what I understand they aren't...I better research it.
I know they have really built themselves into a tourist mecca (not sure if pun is intended) especially for Eiropeans. I know they are one of our biggest Arab allies in the region.
Basically a western revolution must take place for any real change to occur.
__________________
Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean
Originally posted by AZCB34 IS Jordan an oil country? From what I understand they aren't...I better research it.
I know they have really built themselves into a tourist mecca (not sure if pun is intended) especially for Eiropeans. I know they are one of our biggest Arab allies in the region.
Basically a western revolution must take place for any real change to occur.
They aren't, but they are more "modern" socially.
I've had a few Jordanian friends, and they tell me that other than having a somewhat oppressive king, Jordan is pretty liberal compared to other Arab countries.
I do agree (western rev.), but we need to convince Arabs that they can be free, but still practice Islam the way they want to.
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
And I think that's the key. Showing people that they can be free. They can practice their religion and be free.
Can I ask a question? Why do you put "fair and balanced" in the quatation mark? Isn't this article really fair and balanced. I mean, I think it is. I agree with some things, I don't agree with some things, but I think it is a very interesting piece.
Anyways, if we can, let's forget about Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, or whatever, and let's think about this situation in Iraq.
I think that the Muslim terrorists HAVE to defeat us in Iraq if they don't want their entire propaganda mashine to fall appart. They are portraying Americans as terrible people, "Great Satan," and all kinds of crap. We are trying to liberate the people of Iraq, and give them freedom. Establishing a free nation in the middle east would be a deadly blow to the terrorists. When people see that they can be free, they will want to be free.
That's why I believe we need to stay in Iraq, win this war. We have to do this folks. I know you don't like Bus, and I am not too crazy about him either, but this goes beyond politics. This is about freedom, this is about decency, this is about much more than just politics. This war can change the entire middle- eastern world.
What do you guys think?
Stefan
P.S. Tom, thanks for deleating the baby- pissing thread.
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Originally posted by SirStefan32 And I think that's the key. Showing people that they can be free. They can practice their religion and be free.
Can I ask a question? Why do you put "fair and balanced" in the quatation mark? Isn't this article really fair and balanced. I mean, I think it is. I agree with some things, I don't agree with some things, but I think it is a very interesting piece.
Anyways, if we can, let's forget about Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, or whatever, and let's think about this situation in Iraq.
I think that the Muslim terrorists HAVE to defeat us in Iraq if they don't want their entire propaganda mashine to fall appart. They are portraying Americans as terrible people, "Great Satan," and all kinds of crap. We are trying to liberate the people of Iraq, and give them freedom. Establishing a free nation in the middle east would be a deadly blow to the terrorists. When people see that they can be free, they will want to be free.
That's why I believe we need to stay in Iraq, win this war. We have to do this folks. I know you don't like Bus, and I am not too crazy about him either, but this goes beyond politics. This is about freedom, this is about decency, this is about much more than just politics. This war can change the entire middle- eastern world.
What do you guys think?
Stefan
P.S. Tom, thanks for deleating the baby- pissing thread.
I put in "fair and balanced" as a joke.
But I do agree, we have to say in Iraq now that we have become heavily involved there. That's why I would never favor the ultra-pacifist, Kucinich. Dean was 100% when he responded to Kucinich's idea of pulling out altogether, by saying that Iraq could end up worse than before.
This is an undertaking that should take 10 years+ IMHO. We should stay there with an olive branch, and insure that their economy is strengthened and that freedom reigns.
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
I have to add that I do disagree with the original premise of going to war altogether.
Defeating Saddam has not won any of the Arab's hearts really.
And I did delete that thread because you told me that it was offensive. My main reason for being on this forum is not to offend, and I do feel bad when I offend others (most of the time)
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Originally posted by Krangthebrain I put in "fair and balanced" as a joke.
But I do agree, we have to say in Iraq now that we have become heavily involved there. That's why I would never favor the ultra-pacifist, Kucinich. Dean was 100% when he responded to Kucinich's idea of pulling out altogether, by saying that Iraq could end up worse than before.
This is an undertaking that should take 10 years+ IMHO. We should stay there with an olive branch, and insure that their economy is strengthened and that freedom reigns.
So we agree there. The difference is that you were opposed to the war to begin with, and I wasn't, though I did say that we should finish Bin Laden before undertaking another project.
But you are right on as far as you assesment of the situation there and our plans and responsibilities in the future. Now if we could only get our politicians to agree like we do, it would all be great.
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
There is absolutely no logic at this point to leave Iraq until the proper change...or as close as we can get to it...occurs. Leaving now would make everything worse and in many ways would end up negating every single Coalition death. It doesn't matter how we got to this point, now we must finish the job to it's best completion.
Stefan, I think you and Krang both hit on a wonderful topic and it will make a big huge difference and that is the people's of these countries must know and understand freedom. Their religious ties will always remain even though they are free to worship as they please. But in other aspects of living, freedom is so foreign to them it may as well be from Mars.
The biggest hurdle is to get past the monarchies of the region because freedom starts with electing officals and the ruling families of these countries are not going to lose their palaces to a Congress and President (or ones with any power).
Stefan, where I think I disagree a bit with you is the premise that this (Iraq) can change the entire Middle East. This will be viewed for generations in Arab lands as the US bullying Iraq...no matter how bad Saddam is/was. The true change of Middle Eastern thought processes can only really occur in a "peaceful" internal revolution (I use peacefull loosely because for any gains like that, there will be deaths and battles). That is when the rest of the region will take notice.
Krang 10 years is optimistic. The US (and hopefully some other countries) will be carrying Iraq for longer than that since it will take 10 years before a truly stable government will be in power. But at this point, the US must be involved in the long haul. Not only is the stability of the region in our hands but our credibility worldwide is at stake. If the US leaves anarchy and chaos, nobody will ever believe in us to do the "right" thing again.
__________________
Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean
When I said this could change the entire middle east, I should've been much more precise in what I was saying. I understand that it's not gonna change overnight, but these Arabs will see that freedom is a pretty darn good thing.
I completely agree that the only way to change somethign is through a peacefull internal revolution, and I think the liberation of Iraq will at least get people started on thinking about freedom instead of dictatorships.
What fascinates me that regular people with very different philosophies, and worldviews can agree on these things while our politicians are fighting like crazy.
We'll see what happens. I am an eternal optimist, and I think with a lot of hard work, and support, we can convince the Iraqi people to be some kind of a free society. We have to win the hearts of the Iraqis. If we can do that, everything will go easier.
Stefan
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
The US, as part of bringing freedom to Iraq sets up open elections (nothing freer than that) of government officials. What occurs if even more fundamentalist, anti-US people are elected to power in Iraq? How should the US move on that?
I ask because Saddam is still alive and I believe still has alot of power even if it isn't overt. He could strongarm the people to vote for specific candidates. The end could be a more fundamentalist government with greater hatred of the US...while our troops are there.
What should the US do...because, IMO, this could be a very likely event in the first elections?
__________________
Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean
Originally posted by AZCB34 I am curious what you guys think about this:
The US, as part of bringing freedom to Iraq sets up open elections (nothing freer than that) of government officials. What occurs if even more fundamentalist, anti-US people are elected to power in Iraq? How should the US move on that?
I ask because Saddam is still alive and I believe still has alot of power even if it isn't overt. He could strongarm the people to vote for specific candidates. The end could be a more fundamentalist government with greater hatred of the US...while our troops are there.
What should the US do...because, IMO, this could be a very likely event in the first elections?
That to me, is the biggest problem.
At least Saddam, though a butcherer and a sadistic (bleep), wasn't too big on Islamic fundamentalism, especially the strain that bin Laden professes (originates many from a man named Qutb).
If a Taliban-like regime takes over, then this war is a monumental failure. We can't afford to have another Islamic fundamentalist government in that region. The Islamic fundamentalist cater to terrorist moreso that a secular socialist like Saddam.
If Saddam did strongarm the people, he wouldn't push them towards fundamentalism. Saddam, despite his rhetoric, is not a religious man, and the fundamentalist would probably kill him.
This is really a gigantic Catch 22 right now, that's my take on this.
__________________
26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Last edited by Krangthebrain; October 29th, 2003 at 11:55 AM.
Well I agree with the article completely. We need to have less of a presence in the Middle East.
I will say that the longer that we are in Iraq, the more unpopular it will become at home. It will also mean it will become much harder to recruit new members to the armed forces. This coupled with the polls showing that the majority of enlisted men will NOT be reupping when their service expires could put a dangerous strain on our ability to be effective in Iraq as well.
Originally posted by Chris_Sanders Well I agree with the article completely. We need to have less of a presence in the Middle East.
I will say that the longer that we are in Iraq, the more unpopular it will become at home. It will also mean it will become much harder to recruit new members to the armed forces. This coupled with the polls showing that the majority of enlisted men will NOT be reupping when their service expires could put a dangerous strain on our ability to be effective in Iraq as well.
Chris, the problem is there is no real way for the US to have a lesser presence for the foreseeable future. The US (and it's Allies) are in too deep right now. No matter how we ended up in this, we have to see it through
The US public is going to start having conniptions if the attacks keep getting ratcheted up. Right now they are becoming well orchestrated and much mroe lethal. It bothers me to make this comparison since it does a disservice to the past but this is starting to show signs of Vietnam. There are obvious differences but the quagmire is still forming. Unless the US and the Allies along with the Iraqi people step up and take this bull by the balls, it is going to get more painful long before it stops hurting.
The polls about guys reupping etc are discouraging. The experienced guys are the backbone of our Armed Forces. Losing them is akin to a football team going from alot of veterans to alot of rookies. Inexperience kills...and in this case death is real, not in the standings in the sports pages.
__________________
Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean
Linear Mode
