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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:02 AM   #1
nidan
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Question

Where is the Moral Outrage ?


Krang was asked if he was truely outraged or was this just part of his liberal political agenda, that's a good question.

I must ask, where is the moral outrage from the right wing conservatives (both here and nationaly) ? Isn't this scandal an outrage or are you so politicaly motivated that a Bush admisnistraion vcan do no wrong because he is a right wing conservative.

If this was the Clinton administration you would be howling for blood, now it seems the reason for that is politcs not morality. If I'm wrong them prove it, tell me how you are outraged by this and what should be done.

The link below is to a article on the Red Cross which is saying that they have been telling people for some time about this but being ignored. The Red Cross is hardley a liberal democrat organization and the Washington Post is not exactly a tabloid newspaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May10.html
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:08 AM   #2
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Here's the the article so that others don't have to register :


Red Cross Report Describes Systemic Abuse in Iraq

Compiled From Wire Reports
Monday, May 10, 2004; 8:56 AM


GENEVA – Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and "not individual acts" as President Bush has argued, according to a Red Cross report disclosed today.



Bush has said the abuses were the result of the "wrongdoing of a few."

However, the report says "the use of ill-treatment against (Iraqi) persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by" coalition forces.

A senior Red Cross official added: "We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system."

"ICRC (Red Cross) delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation of the persons deprived of their liberty with their interrogators," according to the confidential report. The 24-page document was confirmed as authentic by the International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC) after it was published today by the Wall Street Journal.

The Red Cross report says its delegates saw how detainees at Abu Ghraib were kept "completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness." It said it found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation.

Among the evidence were burns, bruises and other injuries consistent with the abuse that prisoners alleged, it said.

The report cites abuses – some "tantamount to torture" – including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution."

"These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value."'

The agency said arrests allegedly tended to follow a pattern.

"Arresting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said.

"Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles."

Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said the report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail between March and November 2003 "either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions."

Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represents more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib.

"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," he said, declining to give further details.

Kraehenbuehl said the ICRC regretted the publication and said it would have preferred sticking to its policy of confidential discussions with coalition authorities because the United States had been making progress toward meeting its demands.

The report said the abuses were primarily during the interrogation stage by military intelligence.

Once the detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it said.


© 2004 The Washington Post Company


I agree, it's all just partisan bulldunk. As a liberal, I could care less if this was the Democratic party leading us to war or the Republican party.

What is wrong, is wrong, period. Party politics shouldn't matter.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:27 AM   #3
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I'm not a liberal but I'm still waiting for a reply for Renz and his buddies.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:28 AM   #4
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My problem with this whole thing has been where was the moral outrage when the Iraqi's mutilated, burned, and hung the corpses of Americans, when Iraqi's dance on their dead bodies and steal items from dead soldiers? We moan and complain about how bad we Americans are with mental torture, but I didn't see one person on here (that is complaining about this matter) express indignation or moral outrage about any of that.

That's why I feel 90% of this is politically motivated.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40yearfan
My problem with this whole thing has been where was the moral outrage when the Iraqi's mutilated, burned, and hung the corpses of Americans, when Iraqi's dance on their dead bodies and steal items from dead soldiers? We moan and complain about how bad we Americans are with mental torture, but I didn't see one person on here (that is complaining about this matter) express indignation or moral outrage about any of that.

That's why I feel 90% of this is politically motivated.
Do you really believe that anyone on this board wasn't upset about that?
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40yearfan
My problem with this whole thing has been where was the moral outrage when the Iraqi's mutilated, burned, and hung the corpses of Americans, when Iraqi's dance on their dead bodies and steal items from dead soldiers?
Why would we? I expect barbarians to do barbarous things...

They are from the same line of people that killed 3,000 people on September the 11th. I expect them (Islamic fundamentalists) to do those type of things...
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nidan
I must ask, where is the moral outrage from the right wing conservatives (both here and nationaly) ? Isn't this scandal an outrage or are you so politicaly motivated that a Bush admisnistraion vcan do no wrong because he is a right wing conservative.
To what extent do you measure outrage? On every news channel is a major republican condemning the abuses.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
To what extent do you measure outrage? On every news channel is a major republican condemning the abuses.
The outrages, yes - but very few are condemning the policies that lead to the outrages.

At least conservative columnist George Will is putting the heat where it belongs - at the top. He was on Meet the Press (?) yesterday - pointing out that EVERY assumption made by Rumsfeld/Bush regarding Iraq has turned out wrong, but that they are too pig-headed to change.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 40yearfan
My problem with this whole thing has been where was the moral outrage when the Iraqi's mutilated, burned, and hung the corpses of Americans, when Iraqi's dance on their dead bodies and steal items from dead soldiers? We moan and complain about how bad we Americans are with mental torture, but I didn't see one person on here (that is complaining about this matter) express indignation or moral outrage about any of that.
Maybe because I took that for granted that we would be irate about that but it wasn't us that did it, so we can't control that (at least on an internal basis) all we can do is go find the perpetrators.

This is different, we did it, the US and we expect ourselves to be better than than less educated parts of the world. It turns out we aren't as clean as we thought.

If we are going to spout that we are the good, clean and moral Americans and you should believe us. Then we better be that and it turns out we are not.

Even if you don't believe me and you think I have liberal agenda like Krang, so what ? How does that affect your opinion on this, why aren't you outraged by it. Why is Bush trying to find more privates and NCOs to blame for this when the Red Cross is telling us that they have been telling the administration about this for months?

When do we stop being appologists for this?

40yr you aren't really the one I'm talking to here. While I think you are suspicious of motives, I suspect you are upset by this as well, however we have a number of far more radical members such as Renz who are strangely quiet.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 09:52 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Djaughe
To what extent do you measure outrage? On every news channel is a major republican condemning the abuses.
While trying to deflect critisism of the administration and find another pfc to blame.

The Red Cross have been telling them for months
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Old May 10th, 2004, 10:41 AM   #11
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I truely belive that the liberal ignore any atrocities against our armed forces but hammer what our armed forces do.

To compare what our guys did to what their guys did is comparing apples and oranges.

To think they are along the same lines is an outrage.

But since I am neither dem or rep I can say whether clinton or bush were in office I would support what our armed forces did. I am all for a "take no prisoners" approach which neiher the spineless dems or right wing jesus freaks would ever adhere to.

Taking a prisoner in this day of technology is the single most suicidal thing a solder can do. And I have said again and again that only 3 people in this country have the courage to do it repeatedly. (And amazingly all 3 are on this board in the comfort of their homes.)

I am outraged by the press this is getting world wide while stories of our guys (in any war since ww2) has been buried on the back page.

Id like to see any liberal explain why that is. Why are the atrocities against us buried in the news, especially when there is a republican president?

Just reading from different message boards you can only surmise one thing. A liberal thinks its ten times worse for us to "torture" a prisoner than it is for one of our guys to be ambushed or tortured and killed. Im not saying that because of my stance on liberlism but just on the words and thoughts they post.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 10:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swd1974
I truely belive that the liberal ignore any atrocities against our armed forces but hammer what our armed forces do.

To compare what our guys did to what their guys did is comparing apples and oranges.

To think they are along the same lines is an outrage.

But since I am neither dem or rep I can say whether clinton or bush were in office I would support what our armed forces did. I am all for a "take no prisoners" approach which neiher the spineless dems or right wing jesus freaks would ever adhere to.

Taking a prisoner in this day of technology is the single most suicidal thing a solder can do. And I have said again and again that only 3 people in this country have the courage to do it repeatedly. (And amazingly all 3 are on this board in the comfort of their homes.)

I am outraged by the press this is getting world wide while stories of our guys (in any war since ww2) has been buried on the back page.

Id like to see any liberal explain why that is. Why are the atrocities against us buried in the news, especially when there is a republican president?

Just reading from different message boards you can only surmise one thing. A liberal thinks its ten times worse for us to "torture" a prisoner than it is for one of our guys to be ambushed or tortured and killed. Im not saying that because of my stance on liberlism but just on the words and thoughts they post.
Great change the subject, it makes it so much easier. I didn't ask how you felt about liberals or the great conspiracy to ignore "atrocities against us". I don't see it but ok, if you want to believe that then fine and as Krang said, I expect barbarous people to do barbarous things and yes it appalls me.

None of that affects what I'm asking. Why aren't you outraged about what we are doing ? It is a simple question can I have a simple answer ?

If I can get one I have a followup question, do you believe that the few low ranking enlisted types so far identified are the true culprits ?

I fail to see how this question is dependant on how attrocities against us are reported? What you are doing what is called as "staying on message". This means that no matter what you are asked you return to your message, it is a standard political technique for aoiding difficult questions (regardless of your party or beliefs).
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Last edited by nidan; May 10th, 2004 at 10:50 AM.
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Old May 10th, 2004, 10:50 AM   #13
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Conservatives have become unusually restive. Last Tuesday, columnist George F. Will sharply criticized the administration's Iraq policy, writing: "This administration cannot be trusted to govern if it cannot be counted on to think and, having thought, to have second thoughts." Two days earlier, Robert Kagan, a neoconservative supporter of the Iraq war, wrote: "All but the most blindly devoted Bush supporters can see that Bush administration officials have no clue about what to do in Iraq tomorrow, much less a month from now."
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Old May 10th, 2004, 10:51 AM   #14
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Old May 10th, 2004, 10:51 AM   #15
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Scary isn't it, when the conservatives start to get concerned about Bush when he was their stealth conservative candidate.
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