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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:27 AM   #1
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War, Religion and National Interests


War, Religion and National Interests
by James A. Goldsborough
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President Bush's statement to Bob Woodward that he asked God for advice before starting war with Iraq deserves attention. It gives Bush's war a special context.

Unlike most presidents, Bush wears his religion on his sleeve. He has said that God wanted him to be president, that only Christians go to heaven, that creationism as well as evolution should be taught to children, that Jesus is his favorite philosopher.

As president, Bush set up an office for a "faith-based initiative" that did not work out. Woodward says Bush told him he did not appeal to his father for advice on Iraq because "there's a higher father that I appeal to."

Another reason he might have preferred a higher father is that George H.W. Bush probably would have advised against war. Supported by aides Brent Scowcroft, James Baker and Colin Powell, father Bush opposed the occupation of Iraq in 1991.

Religion is already a subject in this presidential election and not because John Kerry is a Catholic. Kerry, like John Kennedy in 1960, is attempting to keep religion out of the race, telling Time magazine that, "my religious beliefs are my personal business." Some Catholic bishops, taking aim on politicians who don't follow church counsel on issues such as abortion, may make it hard for Kerry to keep religion out, but he is trying.

Bush has no such reluctance. He long has emphasized his born-again, evangelical Christianity and how it lifted him from a midlife alcoholic crisis and sent him into politics.

Jimmy Carter was our first born-again, evangelical president, and while that may have helped him defeat Gerald Ford in 1976, it gave him little help against Ronald Reagan in 1980. Whatever Carter's relationship to God, his foreign policy was a mess. Even evangelicals, the nation's largest religious category, turned against Carter in 1980, according to the Harris poll.

Religion normally is not an issue in presidential elections (1928 and 1960 are exceptions) because it is rarely seen as a political asset. In a nation of many creeds and denominations, a candidate emphasizing his beliefs risks losing more than he gains.

The idea of going to war because God is on your side is something alien to American history. The Founding Fathers, in making war against Britain, did not appeal to religion. In a new book about them, University of William and Mary historian David Holmes stresses the lack of religiousity of Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Monroe, calling them all deists or Unitarians.

Abraham Lincoln, not a religious man, leaves no record of having consulted with a "higher father" when the South opened fire on Fort Sumter.

America's wars of the past century were fought over national interests, not religious ones. Woodrow Wilson was the son of a Presbyterian minister, but German submarines, not God, got us into World War I.

Bush's war is different from past American wars because it was a war of choice, not necessity. German submarines weren't sinking our ships, Japan hadn't attacked, world communism was not threatening, Iraq was not a fount of terrorism. It was America's first pre-emptive war.

The strongest support for Bush's war came from Tony Blair, Britain's most religious leader since Gladstone. Like Bush, Blair prays. He keeps a Bible by his bed and says he will only answer to "my maker" for British deaths in Iraq. When David Frost asked if he and Bush prayed together on Iraq, Blair declined to answer.

If Blair prays on Iraq he is not being answered. "Iraq has become a series of crumbled beliefs and dashed hopes for the prime minister," wrote The Economist last week.

Bush is likely less circumspect about religion than Blair because Americans are more religious than the British, according to polls. In a recent survey, the Pew Research Center reported that 51 percent of Americans say they believe in prayer, up from 41 percent in 1987, and that most of the increase comes from evangelicals.

"While there has always been a correlation between conservatism and religiosity," Pew states, "the relationship has grown notably stronger." Evangelicals, at 30 percent, today make up the largest U.S. religious category. Eleven of the 12 most religious states are in the South, and the 10 least religious states are in the North and West.

These data suggest evangelical politicians may not need be so cautious about religion. The idea that you risk more than you gain by mixing religion and politics may change when you can count on a solid evangelical Southern block, and you're not going to win the North and Far West anyway.

The idea of a God-fearing Christian president taking the nation to war against an evil Iraqi regime helps explain the nation's initial support for Bush's war. That support was strengthened after he sought to connect Iraq to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks – a connection we now know was false.

Events of the past year, however, should cause all Americans, including evangelicals, to ask questions. America, not Saddam Hussein, has become the hated enemy in Iraq. Pre-emptive war, religiously motivated or not, is never just war. War is a matter of national, not religious, interests.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:32 AM   #2
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Absolutely frightening.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:35 AM   #3
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What a nut. This doesn't exactly inspire confidence....
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:37 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SECTION 11
Absolutely frightening.
If that frightens you - read this will send you off the deep end:

Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move
The Jesus Landing Pad
by Rick Perlstein
May 18th, 2004 10:00 AM
In Focus: George W. Bush Mondo Washington: Why Were We on Our Own? 9-11 inquiry merely hints at the feds' inaction on the fatal day
Mondo Washington: God is Dad, Bush Says
Mondo Washington: Say What?
The Jesus Landing Pad Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move
The Sex Scandal That Put Bush in the White House How GOP operative Roger Stone destroyed the Reform Party in the 2000 presidential campaign
See More ...


t was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists, where they passed off bogus social science on gay marriage as if it were holy writ and issued fiery warnings that "the Presidents [sic] Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level"—this to a group whose representative in Israel believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter. Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.

But now we know.

"Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.

The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.

Abrams attempted to assuage their concerns by stating that "the Gaza Strip had no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."

Three weeks after the confab, President George W. Bush reversed long-standing U.S. policy, endorsing Israeli sovereignty over parts of the West Bank in exchange for Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.

In an interview with the Voice, Upton denied having written the document, though it was sent out from an e-mail account of one of his staffers and bears the organization's seal, which is nearly identical to the Great Seal of the United States. Its idiosyncratic grammar and punctuation tics also closely match those of texts on the Apostolic Congress's website, and Upton verified key details it recounted, including the number of participants in the meeting ("45 ministers including wives") and its conclusion "with a heart-moving send-off of the President in his Presidential helicopter."

Upton refused to confirm further details.

Affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church, the Apostolic Congress is part of an important and disciplined political constituency courted by recent Republican administrations. As a subset of the broader Christian Zionist movement, it has a lengthy history of opposition to any proposal that will not result in what it calls a "one-state solution" in Israel.

The White House's association with the congress, which has just posted a new staffer in Israel who may be running afoul of Israel's strict anti-missionary laws, also raises diplomatic concerns.

The staffer, Kim Hadassah Johnson, wrote in a report obtained by the Voice, "We are establishing the Meet the Need Fund in Israel—'MNFI.' . . . The fund will be an Interest Free Loan Fund that will enable us to loan funds to new believers (others upon application) who need assistance. They will have the opportunity to repay the loan (although it will not be mandatory)." When that language was read to Moshe Fox, minister for public and interreligious affairs at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, he responded, "It sounds against the law which prohibits any kind of money or material [inducement] to make people convert to another religion. That's what it sounds like." (Fox's judgment was e-mailed to Johnson, who did not return a request for comment.)

The Apostolic Congress dates its origins to 1981, when, according to its website, "Brother Stan Wachtstetter was able to open the door to Apostolic Christians into the White House." Apostolics, a sect of Pentecostals, claim legitimacy as the heirs of the original church because they, as the 12 apostles supposedly did, baptize converts in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Ronald Reagan bore theological affinities with such Christians because of his belief that the world would end in a fiery Armageddon. Reagan himself referenced this belief explicitly a half-dozen times during his presidency.

While the language of apocalyptic Christianity is absent from George W. Bush's speeches, he has proven eager to work with apocalyptics—a point of pride for Upton. "We're in constant contact with the White House," he boasts. "I'm briefed at least once a week via telephone briefings. . . . I was there about two weeks ago . . . At that time we met with the president."

Last spring, after President Bush announced his Road Map plan for peace in the Middle East, the Apostolic Congress co-sponsored an effort with the Jewish group Americans for a Safe Israel that placed billboards in 23 cities with a quotation from Genesis ("Unto thy offspring will I give this land") and the message, "Pray that President Bush Honors God's Covenant with Israel. Call the White House with this message." It then provided the White House phone number and the Apostolic Congress's Web address.

In the interview with the Voice, Pastor Upton claimed personal responsibility for directing 50,000 postcards to the White House opposing the Road Map, which aims to create a Palestinian state. "I'm in total disagreement with any form of Palestinian state," Upton said. "Within a two-week period, getting 50,000 postcards saying the exact same thing from places all over the country, that resonated with the White House. That really caused [President Bush] to backpedal on the Road Map."

When I sought to confirm Upton's account of the meeting with the White House, I was directed to National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones, whose initial response upon being read a list of the names of White House staffers present was a curt, "You know half the people you just mentioned are Jewish?"

When asked for comment on top White House staffers meeting with representatives of an organization that may be breaking Israeli law, Jones responded, "Why would the White House comment on that?"

When asked whose job it is in the administration to study the Bible to discern what parts of Israel were or weren't acceptable sacrifices for peace, Jones said that his previous statements had been off-the-record.

When Pastor Upton was asked to explain why the group's website describes the Apostolic Congress as "the Christian Voice in the nation's capital," instead of simply a Christian voice in the nation's capital, he responded, "There has been a real lack of leadership in having someone emerge as a Christian voice, someone who doesn't speak for the right, someone who doesn't speak for the left, but someone who speaks for the people, and someone who speaks from a theocratical perspective."

When his words were repeated back to him to make sure he had said a "theocratical" perspective, not a "theological" perspective, he said, "Exactly. Exactly. We want to know what God would have us say or what God would have us do in every issue."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Middle East was not the only issue discussed at the March 25 meeting. James Wilkinson, deputy national security advisor for communications, spoke first and is characterized as stating that the 9-11 Commission "is portraying those who have given their all to protect this nation as 'weak on terrorism,' " that "99 percent of all the men and women protecting us in this fight against terrorism are career citizens," and offered the example of Frances Town-send, deputy national security adviser for combating terrorism, "who sacrificed Christmas to do a 'security video' conference."

Tim Goeglein, deputy director of public liaison and the White House's point man with evangelical Christians, moderated, and he also spoke on the issue of same-sex marriage. According to the memo, he asked the rhetorical questions: "What will happen to our country if that actually happens? What do those pushing such hope to gain?" His answer: "They want to change America." How so? He quoted the research of Hoover Institute senior fellow Stanley Kurtz, who holds that since gay marriage was legalized in Scandinavia, marriage itself has virtually ceased to exist. (In fact, since Sweden instituted a registered-partnership law for same-sex couples in the mid '90s, there has been no overall change in the marriage and divorce rates there.)

It is Matt Schlapp, White House political director and Karl Rove's chief lieutenant, who was paraphrased as stating "that the Presidents Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level."

Also present at the meeting was Kristen Silverberg, deputy assistant to the president for domestic policy. (None of the participants responded to interview requests.)

The meeting was closed by Goeglein, who was asked, "What can we do to assist in this fight for these issues and our nations [sic] foundation and values?" and who reportedly responded, "Pray, pray, pray, pray."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Apostolic Congress's representative in Israel, Kim Johnson, is ethnically Jewish, keeps kosher, and holds herself to the sumptuary standards of Orthodox Jewish women, so as to better blend in to her surroundings.

In one letter home obtained by the Voice she notes that many of the Apostolic Christians she works with in Israel are Filipino women "married to Jewish men—who on occasion accompany their wives to meetings. We are planning to start a fellowship with this select group where we can meet for dinners and get to know one another. Please Pray for the timing and formation of such." Elsewhere she talks of a discussion with someone "on the pitfalls and aggravations of Christians who missionize Jews." She works often among the Jewish poor—the kind of people who might be interested in interest-free loans—and is thrilled to "meet the outcasts of this Land—how wonderful because they are in the in-casts for His Kingdom."

An ecstatic figure who from her own reports appears to operate at the edge of sanity ("Two of the three nights in my apartment I have been attacked by a hair raising spirit of fear," she writes, noting the sublet contained a Harry Potter book; "at this time I am associating it with witchcraft"), Johnson has also met with Knesset member Gila Gamliel. (Gamliel did not respond to interview requests.) She also boasted of an imminent meeting with a "Knesset leader."

"At this point and for all future mails it is important for me to note that this country has very stiff anti-missionary laws," she warns the followers back home. [D]iscretion is required in all mails. This is particularly important to understand when people write mails or ask about organization efforts regarding such."

Her boss, Pastor Upton, displays a photograph on the Apostolic Congress website of a meeting between himself and Beny Elon, Prime Minister Sharon's tourism minister, famous in Israel for his advocacy of the expulsion of Palestinians from Israeli-controlled lands.

His spokesman in the U.S., Ronn Torassian, affirmed that "Minister Elon knows Mr. Upton well," but when asked whether he is aware that Mr. Upton's staffer may be breaking Israel's anti-missionary laws, snapped: "It's not something he's interested in discussing with The Village Voice."

In addition to its work in Israel, the Apostolic Congress is part of the increasingly Christian public face of pro-Israel activities in the United States. Don Wagner, author of the book Anxious for Armageddon, has been studying Christian Zionism for 15 years, and believes that the current hard-line pro-Israel movement in the U.S. is "predominantly gentile." Often, devotees work in concert with Jewish groups like Americans for a Safe Israel, or AFSI, which set up a mostly Christian Committee for a One-State Solution as the sponsor of last year's billboard campaign. The committee's board included, in addition to Upton, such evangelical luminaries as Gary Bauer and E.E. "Ed" McAteer of the Religious Roundtable.

AFSI's executive director, Helen Freedman, confirms the increasingly Christian cast of her coalition. "We have many good Jews, of course," she says, "but they're in the minority." She adds, "The liberal Jew is unable to believe the Arab when he says his goal is to Islamize the West. . . . But I believe it. And evangelical Christians believe it."

Of Jews who might otherwise support her group's view of Jews' divine right to Israel, she laments, "They're embarrassed about quoting the Bible, about referring to the Covenant, about talking about the Promised Land."

Pastor Upton is not embarrassed, and Helen Freedman is proud of her association with him. She is wistful when asked if she, like Upton, has been able to finagle a meeting with the president. "Pastor Upton is the head of a whole Apostolic Congress," she laments. "It's a nationwide group of evangelicals."

Upton has something Freedman covets: a voting bloc.

She laughs off concerns that, for Christian Zionists, actual Jews living in Israel serve as mere props for their end-time scenario: "We have a different conception of what [the end of the world] will be like . . . Whoever is right will rejoice, and whoever was wrong will say, 'Whoops!' "

She's not worried, either, about evangelical anti-Semitism: "I don't think it exists," she says. She does say, however, that it would concern her if she learned the Apostolic Congress had a representative in Israel trying to win converts: "If we discovered that people were trying to convert Jews to Christianity, we would be very upset."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kim Johnson doesn't call it converting Jews to Christianity. She calls it "Circumcision of the Heart"—a spiritual circumcision Jews must undergo because, she writes in paraphrase of Jeremiah, chapter 9, "God will destroy all the uncircumcised nations along with the House of Israel, because the House of Israel is uncircumcised in the heart . . . [I]t is through the Gospel . . . that men's hearts are circumcised."

Apostolics believe that only 144,000 Jews who have not, prior to the Second Coming of Christ, acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah will be saved in the end times. Though even for those who do not believe in this literal interpretation of the Bible—or for anyone who lives in Israel, or who cares about Israel, or whose security might be affected by a widespread conflagration in the Middle East, which is everyone—the scriptural prophecies of the Christian Zionists should be the least of their worries.

Instead, we should be worried about self-fulfilling prophecies. "Biblically," stated one South Carolina minister in support of the anti-Road Map billboard campaign, "there's always going to be a war."

Don Wagner, an evangelical, worries that in the Republican Party, people who believe this "are dominating the discourse now, in an election year." He calls the attempt to yoke Scripture to current events "a modern heresy, with cultish proportions.

"I mean, it's appalling," he rails on. "And it also shows how marginalized mainstream Christian thinking, and the majority of evangelical thought, have become."

It demonstrates, he says, "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."

The problem is not that George W. Bush is discussing policy with people who press right-wing solutions to achieve peace in the Middle East, or with devout Christians. It is that he is discussing policy with Christians who might not care about peace at all—at least until the rapture.

The Jewish pro-Israel lobby, in the interests of peace for those living in the present, might want to consider a disengagement.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:40 AM   #5
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Did God really tell him to go invade another country that wasn't a threat to us, kill a bunch of their people and now end up in a situation where it is still open season on Americans here and soldiers there?

This is why I simply don't get God sometimes. The dude doesn't seem to know very much for being the Supreme ruler of all creation...just a little sarcasm.

My belief system of God tells me Bush was asking but nobody was answering.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:41 AM   #6
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Oh, it gets better....



US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy

George Monbiot
Tuesday April 20, 2004


To understand what is happening in the Middle East, you must first understand what is happening in Texas. To understand what is happening there, you should read the resolutions passed at the state's Republican party conventions last month. Take a look, for example, at the decisions made in Harris County, which covers much of Houston.


The delegates began by nodding through a few uncontroversial matters: homosexuality is contrary to the truths ordained by God; "any mechanism to process, license, record, register or monitor the ownership of guns" should be repealed; income tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax and corporation tax should be abolished; and immigrants should be deterred by electric fences. Thus fortified, they turned to the real issue: the affairs of a small state 7,000 miles away. It was then, according to a participant, that the "screaming and near fist fights" began.

I don't know what the original motion said, but apparently it was "watered down significantly" as a result of the shouting match. The motion they adopted stated that Israel has an undivided claim to Jerusalem and the West Bank, that Arab states should be "pressured" to absorb refugees from Palestine, and that Israel should do whatever it wishes in seeking to eliminate terrorism. Good to see that the extremists didn't prevail then.

But why should all this be of such pressing interest to the people of a state which is seldom celebrated for its fascination with foreign affairs? The explanation is slowly becoming familiar to us, but we still have some difficulty in taking it seriously.

In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth.

What makes the story so appealing to Christian fundamentalists is that before the big battle begins, all "true believers" (ie those who believe what they believe) will be lifted out of their clothes and wafted up to heaven during an event called the Rapture. Not only do the worthy get to sit at the right hand of God, but they will be able to watch, from the best seats, their political and religious opponents being devoured by boils, sores, locusts and frogs, during the seven years of Tribulation which follow. The true believers are now seeking to bring all this about. This means staging confrontations at the old temple site (in 2000, three US Christians were deported for trying to blow up the mosques there), sponsoring Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, demanding ever more US support for Israel, and seeking to provoke a final battle with the Muslim world/Axis of Evil/United Nations/ European Union/France or whoever the legions of the antichrist turn out to be.

The believers are convinced that they will soon be rewarded for their efforts. The antichrist is apparently walking among us, in the guise of Kofi Annan, Javier Solana, Yasser Arafat or, more plausibly, Silvio Berlusconi. The Wal-Mart corporation is also a candidate (in my view a very good one), because it wants to radio-tag its stock, thereby exposing humankind to the Mark of the Beast.


By clicking on www.raptureready.com, you can discover how close you might be to flying out of your pyjamas. The infidels among us should take note that the Rapture Index currently stands at 144, just one point below the critical threshold, beyond which the sky will be filled with floating nudists. Beast Government, Wild Weather and Israel are all trading at the maximum five points (the EU is debat ing its constitution, there was a freak hurricane in the south Atlantic, Hamas has sworn to avenge the killing of its leaders), but the second coming is currently being delayed by an unfortunate decline in drug abuse among teenagers and a weak showing by the antichrist (both of which score only two).

We can laugh at these people, but we should not dismiss them. That their beliefs are bonkers does not mean they are marginal. American pollsters believe that 15-18% of US voters belong to churches or movements which subscribe to these teachings. A survey in 1999 suggested that this figure included 33% of Republicans. The best-selling contemporary books in the US are the 12 volumes of the Left Behind series, which provide what is usually described as a "fictionalised" account of the Rapture (this, apparently, distinguishes it from the other one), with plenty of dripping details about what will happen to the rest of us. The people who believe all this don't believe it just a little; for them it is a matter of life eternal and death.

And among them are some of the most powerful men in America. John Ashcroft, the attorney general, is a true believer, so are several prominent senators and the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. Mr DeLay (who is also the co-author of the marvellously named DeLay-Doolittle Amendment, postponing campaign finance reforms) travelled to Israel last year to tell the Knesset that "there is no middle ground, no moderate position worth taking".

So here we have a major political constituency - representing much of the current president's core vote - in the most powerful nation on Earth, which is actively seeking to provoke a new world war. Its members see the invasion of Iraq as a warm-up act, as Revelation (9:14-15) maintains that four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates" will be released "to slay the third part of men". They batter down the doors of the White House as soon as its support for Israel wavers: when Bush asked Ariel Sharon to pull his tanks out of Jenin in 2002, he received 100,000 angry emails from Christian fundamentalists, and never mentioned the matter again. The electoral calculation, crazy as it appears, works like this. Governments stand or fall on domestic issues. For 85% of the US electorate, the Middle East is a foreign issue, and therefore of secondary interest when they enter the polling booth. For 15% of the electorate, the Middle East is not just a domestic matter, it's a personal one: if the president fails to start a conflagration there, his core voters don't get to sit at the right hand of God. Bush, in other words, stands to lose fewer votes by encouraging Israeli aggression than he stands to lose by restraining it. He would be mad to listen to these people. He would also be mad not to.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 09:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by AZCB34
My belief system of God tells me Bush was asking but nobody was answering.
Either that - or Val Kilmer rigged up some device in Bush's ear like he did to that poor kid in the movie REAL GENIUS and had Cheney talking to him through a voice demogulator - "And George - stop playing with yourself!" It is you God!"
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Old May 25th, 2004, 12:47 PM   #8
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Either that - or Val Kilmer rigged up some device in Bush's ear like he did to that poor kid in the movie REAL GENIUS and had Cheney talking to him through a voice demogulator - "And George - stop playing with yourself!" It is you God!"
come on now folks! A REAL GENIUS reference and not even ONE person says "Good one!" I had to go into the way back machine to pull that one and no kudos? I am losing it - funny cheese has once again resorted back to sad, writer-blocked cheese who is starving for attention - whimper, whimper.

P.S. - I hate girls who give their number out but don't tell you they have boyfriends - WTF?!
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Old May 25th, 2004, 12:51 PM   #9
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come on now folks! A REAL GENIUS reference and not even ONE person says "Good one!" I had to go into the way back machine to pull that one and no kudos? I am losing it - funny cheese has once again resorted back to sad, writer-blocked cheese who is starving for attention - whimper, whimper.

P.S. - I hate girls who give their number out but don't tell you they have boyfriends - WTF?!
Look at the bright side... She doesn't really have a boyfriend!
Now turn that frown upside-down! Buck up lil' camper!!
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Old May 25th, 2004, 12:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesebeef
come on now folks! A REAL GENIUS reference and not even ONE person says "Good one!" I had to go into the way back machine to pull that one and no kudos? I am losing it - funny cheese has once again resorted back to sad, writer-blocked cheese who is starving for attention - whimper, whimper.

P.S. - I hate girls who give their number out but don't tell you they have boyfriends - WTF?!
Way too much Popcorn for me.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 12:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SECTION 11
Look at the bright side... She doesn't really have a boyfriend!
Now turn that frown upside-down! Buck up lil' camper!!
as the dagger goes in deeper and deeper - nice popcorn reference Wally.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 01:18 PM   #12
justAndy
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um....


input from some of the Christians?
Do any of y'all oppose the "Christian Zionist" and "Armageddonist" groups that seem to have WAY too much of our president's attention?
Religious values - ok, I guess, but driving foreign policy with extreme "prophecy" beliefs?
Kinda scary to me, what is up in our country?
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Old May 25th, 2004, 01:22 PM   #13
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Hopefully the Dome of the Rock will always exist, thus keeping Christians from sitting at the right hand of the Lord.

If it's all true, I rather suspect I will enjoy hell. I'd rather live in hell for eternity, than live a lifetime as a slave.
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Old May 25th, 2004, 01:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andikrist
input from some of the Christians?
Do any of y'all oppose the "Christian Zionist" and "Armageddonist" groups that seem to have WAY too much of our president's attention?
Religious values - ok, I guess, but driving foreign policy with extreme "prophecy" beliefs?
Kinda scary to me, what is up in our country?
Now you've gone and done it. There goes the neighborhood.
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