Utah - theocracy?

Dback Jon · September 5th, 2003, 08:43 AM

It is insane that the state legislature looks to a church for guidance when setting/changing laws.

Quote:

Mormon Church OKs Firing Squad Change
Thu Sep 4,11:37 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

SALT LAKE CITY - Hoping to clear the way for eliminating the firing squad as a means of execution, a Utah commission asked for and received a statement from the Mormon church saying it does not oppose the change.

In a one-sentence statement provided Wednesday to the Utah Sentencing Commission, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said it "has no objection to the elimination of the firing squad in Utah."

The clarification was needed, according to one commission member, because of a purported church doctrine that held that justice was not done unless a murderer's blood was shed.

The Mormon statement removes a significant obstacle in Utah's effort to do away with firing-squad executions.

Commission member Paul Boyden said recent letters to the editor to newspapers indicate some in Mormon-dominated Utah still believe the firing squad is necessary for religious reasons. Commission members feared that belief could hurt the chances of the proposed change in the Legislature.

"If we hadn't (asked for the church's position), this probably would have been a question among some legislators and it may have not made it out of committee," Boyden said.

The commission is studying the issue and plans to formally recommend eliminating the firing squad, leaving injection as Utah's only method of execution. Commission members want to make the change quickly to stop the "media circus" that surrounds firing squad executions, Boyden said.

Utah is the only state that uses the firing squad method, although Idaho and Oklahoma retain it as an option if other methods are not viable.

Utah's last execution by firing squad took place in 1996. Two death row inmates who had chosen that method had been scheduled to die in June, but those executions were delayed.

Chaz · September 5th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Jon, I don't understand why you care.

You don't live in Utah. Utah has many laws inspired and enacted based on church doctrine. It is not like it is something new.

It is Utah's business who they consult in forming laws.

JMHO

whatchamacallit · September 5th, 2003, 09:08 AM

Religious faith of any kind is supposed to guide a person in everything they do. Utah is the base for the Mormon Church so it is likely that many of Utah's political leaders are Mormons. You can remove religion from politics but you will never be able to remove religion from the politicians.

SirStefan32 · September 5th, 2003, 09:37 AM

As a conservative Christian, I am going to side with Jon on this one. While I believe our laws should be based on Jedeo- Christian values, I think it is outrageous to ask the church if they oppose something.

It is our job to put godly people in the government and courts, it is their job to make sure laws are based on morality, but the institution of Church should not be formally asked if they oppose or support something.

Stefan

Chaz · September 5th, 2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirStefan32
As a conservative Christian, I am going to side with Jon on this one. While I believe our laws should be based on Jedeo- Christian values, I think it is outrageous to ask the church if they oppose something.

It is our job to put godly people in the government and courts, it is their job to make sure laws are based on morality, but the institution of Church should not be formally asked if they oppose or support something.

Stefan

I understand the point but if a majority of Utah's citizens are sensitive to the church's position, shouldn't the government be sensitive to the majority opinion?

I don't think they are asking them to make the laws. They just asked if they had a problem with a proposed change.

As a non-mormon, if I lived in Utah, I might have a different opinion. I guess that is part of the reason I would not consider moving to Utah.

whatchamacallit · September 5th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirStefan32
As a conservative Christian, I am going to side with Jon on this one. While I believe our laws should be based on Jedeo- Christian values, I think it is outrageous to ask the church if they oppose something.

It is our job to put godly people in the government and courts, it is their job to make sure laws are based on morality, but the institution of Church should not be formally asked if they oppose or support something.

Stefan

Their not asking the Church to dictate the law to them, but only for the Mormon Church's opinion. What's wrong with politicians going back to the people they represent and asking for their opinion on something? The Utah politicians know that if the Mormon Church doesn't have a problem with something that a good portion of Utah won't have a problem with it either.

What a unique concept. Politicians actually asking for public opinion before changing the law. Sounds like the right thing to do.

SirStefan32 · September 5th, 2003, 09:55 AM

I guess you are right. They were simply asking for their oppinion.

Stefan

Dback Jon · September 5th, 2003, 10:37 AM

They are not just asking for the church's opinion - they are asking for their approval. Didn't you read the article? All of it? It clearly states that without the Church's approval, the measure would have no chance of passage - hence, a defacto theocracy.

Why does it bother me? Because, I am a US citizen, and am concerned at what happens everywhere. One never knows when a job may present itself, anywhere.

Chaz · September 5th, 2003, 10:50 AM

There was some question about the church's position and the commission asked for clarification on their opinion of the rule change. I don't see how a commission recommending changes to the legislature asking the church what they think about the changes constitutes a theocracy.

1: a political unit governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided)
2: the belief in government by divine guidance

It is not a huge shock Utah is dominated by Mormons and their church. What about the liquor laws? They are very strict in Utah mostly due to the influence of the Mormon Church.
So why should the firing squad question be any different?

So you are worried about the motavations of the Utah state government because you might want to take a job there someday?
Sorry, but I would not take a job in Utah.

whatchamacallit · September 5th, 2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dback Jon
They are not just asking for the church's opinion - they are asking for their approval. Didn't you read the article? All of it? It clearly states that without the Church's approval, the measure would have no chance of passage - hence, a defacto theocracy.

I read the article. The Church has no authority to pass any law or bill in Utah. Asking for the church's approval is simply another way of asking for their opinion. If the church did not give their approval whould that have stopped their law change? Maybe. It would have been an indication if the state's population would have accepted the change or protested against it. Again, I see no problem with what was done.

justAndy · September 5th, 2003, 02:13 PM

My brother married a Utah girl - her family is from there, the wedding was there. We PARTIED like vikings, and the back pages ads in the SLC version of the New Times had a bunch of ads for escort services, gay bars, "massage parlors, etc...
The reality of Utah is more like the rest of the US than many realize. Heck - it's the UTAH attorny general that's going HARD after those filthy child raping "Mormons" in Arizona city...

Brian in Mesa · July 28th, 2005, 07:35 PM

Mormons to lose dominance of US state of Utah within 30 years
Thu Jul 28, 2005

The Mormon faith looks set to lose its 150-year-old dominance over the state of Utah by the year 2030 as more people leave the church than can be recruited, figures showed.

By 2030, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints will no longer be in the majority in the state their forefathers founded, figures from the state's Office of Planning and Budget showed.

Currently Mormons make up 62.4 percent of the state's population, according to the who according to the 2004 census, but every county in the state showed a decrease in church membership since 2000.

In recent years the number of converts has not kept pace with those leaving the church, whose leaders began populating the then desolate western American state in 1847, experts said.

"Utah is essentially becoming more like the nation," said Robert Spendlove, the lead demographer for the state, told the Salt Lake Tribune.

The problem originates in the faith's tradition of rapid conversion of investigators to the church according to David Stewart, a church member and researcher who has studied the problem of member retention in the church.

Stewart, who has studied the question for over 14 years, said that such quick conversions are a "recipe for inactivity."

"I'm encouraged that there is a little bit of awareness of the problem," he said.

The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 the Graduate Center of City University of New York said in a report that the same number of people had left the Mormon church in the United States as had joined it.

LoyaltyisaCurse · July 28th, 2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dback Jon

They are not just asking for the church's opinion - they are asking for their approval. Didn't you read the article? All of it? It clearly states that without the Church's approval, the measure would have no chance of passage - hence, a defacto theocracy.

Why does it bother me? Because, I am a US citizen, and am concerned at what happens everywhere. One never knows when a job may present itself, anywhere.

Dback Jon · July 29th, 2005, 06:23 AM

Ah - memories....

And I forgot to put Coyote Tony/whatachamcallit on my 10,000 post dedication of the perma-banned.......

Southpaw · July 29th, 2005, 06:59 AM

Next step............ Secede from the Union