Enjoy an Ads-Free ASFN - lighter and faster too! Become an ASFN-Contributor and help support the site.
Go Back   Arizona Sports Fans Network > Other Stuff > Politics and Religion

Welcome to ASFN Fan Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.


Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 1st, 2005, 07:57 AM   #1
wallyburger
Agent Provocateur
 
wallyburger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: via pacis
Posts: 17,854
A$FN: 15,000

U.S. Blunders Provoke Burgeoning Civil Wa


Published on Sunday, October 30, 2005 by the St. Paul Pioneer Press (Minnesota)
U.S. Blunders Provoke Burgeoning Civil War
by Tom Maertens

All wars have unintended consequences. The Bush administration never set out to establish another Islamic state in the Middle East when it invaded Iraq, but that is what is happening. In fact, the Bush administration's policies virtually ensure that outcome.

The Iraqi insurgency consists almost entirely of Sunnis, along with a few foreign jihadists like al-Zarqawi, also a Sunni, who has openly declared war on Shiites. By working to suppress the insurgency, the U.S. is de facto helping the Shiites establish a new order, which they have made clear will be an Islamic state, inevitably tied to Iran.

During their years in power, Saddam and the Sunnis reportedly killed 300,000 Shiites and thousands of Kurds, including by means of chemical weapons. The U.S. invasion, has allowed the Shiites and Kurds – together almost 80 percent of the population – to get out from under Sunni domination. The insurgents are fighting to turn back the clock, against American occupation and to restore Sunni rule, which dominated what is now Iraq for 500 years under Turkish administration.

Despite this legacy of violence, the Bush administration believes that American troops can maintain Iraqi unity and install democracy. Without the U.S. presence, they argue, the country will collapse into ethnic cleansing and civil war.

According to Peter Galbraith in the Oct. 6 New York Review, there are one thousand political murders every month in Baghdad alone, not counting the hundreds of victims of suicide bombers and other killings around the country. In other words, a low-grade civil war is already occurring in Iraq.

We should have learned from Vietnam about the hazards of getting involved in a civil war. Unfortunately, Bush administration officials seemed to have learned nothing from Vietnam except how to evade military service.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was once questioned about an Islamic government in Iraq. His response: "If you're suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn't going to happen."

But that is going to happen. The Shiites, who comprise 60 percent of the population, will win any fair election in a landslide. They are the group that pressed for an Islamic republic during the negotiations on a new constitution. Their historical ties to Iran's Shiite government are well known.

Another unintended consequence of our military intervention will be to facilitate the Kurds' march to independence, leading to the likely breakup of Iraq. In the last election in Kurdistan, 98 percent of the population voted in favor of independence.

The costs to the U.S. of this misguided occupation are enormous.

According to the Christian Science Monitor, the war in Iraq has already cost the U.S. more money in real terms than it spent in World War I.

Besides the $260 billion in military costs, total spending for Iraq has to include $315 billion in future veterans' benefits, $220 billion in added interest, and $119 billion for every $5 increase in the price of oil through July 2010, plus $24 billion for reconstruction and security.

The human costs are 2,000 dead, 20,000 wounded and counting. The political costs in loss of prestige and international support cannot be calculated.

In the end, we will spend $1 trillion or more for an outcome that is inimical to our interests: an Islamic state aligned with Iran, an independent Kurdistan and a rump Sunni state around Baghdad that might well become a haven for terrorists, as Afghanistan did after the Russian occupation.

In the meantime, four years after 9/11, Osama bin Laden remains at large, the Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan is now supplying 87 percent of the world's opium. Because of the unprovoked invasion of Iraq, the other two charter members of what President Bush called the "axis of evil," Iran and North Korea, are developing nuclear weapons as a way to deter a similar fate.

This series of outcomes makes Bush's invasion of Iraq a fiasco without parallel in American foreign policy since Vietnam. And the end is not in sight.

Maertens of Mankato served around the world as a U.S. Foreign Service officer for 28 years.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
__________________
In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

--Voltaire
wallyburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 08:23 AM   #2
Stout
THE NFL IS BACK!!!
 
Stout's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western PA
Posts: 12,619
A$FN: 7,595
This is not good. What a powder keg, to say the least.
__________________
Veni, vidi, vici--this goes out to all our NFC West chums

Thank you for breaking the circle of suck, Bidwill--Stout, December 7 2008.
Stout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 10:04 AM   #3
AZZenny
Free Gilad
 
AZZenny's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cave Creek
Posts: 7,663
A$FN: 14,315
Send a message via AIM to AZZenny
Reportedly Israeli intelligence and leadership has tried to persuade the Bush Admin to learn from Israel's mistakes: "There is no way to 'win' an occupation" Apparently they believe we've pretty much f###ed ourselves. Geez - don't they know we learned from Viet Nam?!

But there is also evidence that the Israelis are actively assisting Iraqi Kurds in developing intelligence and commando skills and also high-tech infrastructure, even at the great risk of alienating semi-neutral Turkey (with a large Kurd Population) among other countries in proximity, as well as annoying the US.

Maybe its an effort to create a 'second front' to divide Arab attention, since Arabs hate the Kurds almost as much as they hate the Jews. There is a certain logic I guess, to two outcast peoples cooperating, but it will become totally incendiary at some point.

The Kurds are definitely another example of conference-table cartography having potentially disastrous effects generations after the fact.

Mega-powder-keg. Nuke the whole Middle East and be done with it.
__________________

oderint dum metuant (Latin for 'let them hate, so long as they fear').



Well, in truth I'm actually not a total hawk, but I'm not a dove either -- I'm more like an angry pigeon flying over the political arena after a really big meal.
-Abba Gav
AZZenny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 10:12 AM   #4
swd1974
Registered User
 
swd1974's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 13,456
A$FN: 10,648
Send a message via AIM to swd1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallyburger
the Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan,.
Saying the Taliban is clawing its way to victory, as this tries to convey, is like saying the southern rebels in the US are slowly plodding their way to imminant victory.
__________________
Goal for 2008: Half as many penalties.
swd1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 11:48 AM   #5
Derm
slippery when wet
 
Derm's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe - home of the AZ Cardinals
Posts: 1,784
A$FN: 1,200
Yes, we're terrible and will cause the end to all mankind.


blah, blah, blah
Derm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 12:34 PM   #6
LoyaltyisaCurse
Answers Before Questions
 
LoyaltyisaCurse's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posts: 12,409
A$FN: 4,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derm
Yes, we're terrible and will cause the end to all mankind.


blah, blah, blah
The US never makes mistakes or practice poor judgement and never causes bad things to happen, never!

blah, blah, blah,...
__________________
Goin' "Double Maverick!"
LoyaltyisaCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 12:40 PM   #7
wallyburger
Agent Provocateur
 
wallyburger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: via pacis
Posts: 17,854
A$FN: 15,000
Quote:
is like saying the southern rebels in the US are slowly plodding their way to imminant victory.
well, they are red states now.
__________________
In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

--Voltaire
wallyburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 12:42 PM   #8
wallyburger
Agent Provocateur
 
wallyburger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: via pacis
Posts: 17,854
A$FN: 15,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derm
Yes, we're terrible and will cause the end to all mankind.






blah, blah, blah


sniper alert
__________________
In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

--Voltaire
wallyburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 01:54 PM   #9
justAndy
Jolly Nihilist
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Old Town Scottsdale
Posts: 6,858
A$FN: 1,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derm
Yes, we're terrible and will cause the end to all mankind.


blah, blah, blah
Not you and I, Derm.
Trying to influence events and control other countries doesn't work in the long run.
__________________
"Seachicken - it's what's for dinner" - me (until the 'Hawks sweep the Cards)
Check out Dephinger on our MySpace page.
justAndy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 06:18 PM   #10
Red Hawk
JUST WIN!
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buckeye, AZ / Section 106
Posts: 1,838
A$FN: 1,000
Exactly what does this reporter, and I use the term losely, mean by "Islamic state"?

Was he expecting the 99.5% of the population of Iraq to stop being Muslim.
To form some sort ACLU leftist 'no under god' version of their utopia.

On second thought after re-reading this pathetic diatribe from ST. Paul the worst thing one can do is repond to this drivil.

I only hope this was found in the editorial section and not passed off as a news article.
__________________
PRAY TO THE FOOTBALL GODS FOR SALVATION
Red Hawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2005, 06:29 PM   #11
Red Hawk
JUST WIN!
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buckeye, AZ / Section 106
Posts: 1,838
A$FN: 1,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by justAndy
Not you and I, Derm.
Trying to influence events and control other countries doesn't work in the long run.
Please its worked for centuries whether subtlely or overt. Its only the failures that get noticed.

And no TV talking heads or 'journalists' or even P/R message board users like us can judge the success or failure of the Iraq situation now.

Nor in good conscience accurately predict the future of this or any other nation and its people.
__________________
PRAY TO THE FOOTBALL GODS FOR SALVATION
Red Hawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
foreign policy


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Sitemap:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:20 PM.



Subscribe in a reader
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios
Copyright © 2002 - 2006 ArizonaSportsFans.com
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design