Troops Petition Congress for Iraq Withdrawal - Page 2

Krangthebrain · October 25th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Some solid evidence of what occures when you lower enlistment standards.

That's total b.s.

It's the duty of a soldier to answer the call to go to war. But that contradicts the duty of an American citizen: to use our voice and the voting process to change our countries direction if we believe it to be wrong.

As a soldier I will respect the President, follow the officers apointed over me, and execute my tasks. But as a citizen I will speak out against anything that my country does wrong and join the effort to 'right the ship'.

Chaz · October 25th, 2006, 10:51 PM

Fred Reed posted this 3 weeks ago.

Quote:

When, one wonders, will mutiny begin among the troops in Iraq?

Recently I talked by email about the war with Jim Coyne, an airborne-infantry friend who served two tours as a gunship door-gunner in Viet Nam and then made a career in journalism. I asked, “Do they [I meant the officer corps, the official military] actually believe the optimistic twaddle this time around? Do they really not know what is happening?”

Jim’s response: “In my opinion, they really don't know; they may not even want to know on some level. You know as well as I, these are mission-oriented folks; can do folks; failure and its introspective handmaidens are not options to them. And in a tactical mission-oriented world our military doesn't really fail very often; in a strategic military/political world such as the Mideast and Iraq, however, we simply cannot win.

”Again, as in Viet Nam, the career officer corps salutes and marches toward the sound of battle. Eventually however (and it won't be long now) it's the grunts who will begin to revolt, first in small ways (as in the 101st in late 1968, "No sir. We are not going up that hill again.") and then, quickly thereafter (As in 1973, "F___ you, *******.") By that time the media may get wind of things and spin it exponentially out of control. That’s what I think.”

So do I.

Continued...

Southpaw · October 26th, 2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirChaz

Fred Reed posted this 3 weeks ago.

Continued...

The rest of the article is a dynamite read.

Hadn't heard of Fred Reed.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krangthebrain

That's total b.s.
.

Well thats your opinion.

100 soldiers signed this petition out of how many thousands? Puts you in a minority.

You would not be in a foxhole of mine. I dont have time for whiners fighting next to me battle takes a bit of concentration, and determination. Neither of which someone who is crying and bitching about wanting to leave has.

Whine when you get back home, not when a buddy is needing you. Ashame you dont learn any of this in you MOS krang.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 04:17 AM

If mutiny occurs in the army we need to bring back executions of traitors. Vietnam and Korea were a hell of a lot more wrong than Iraq. Our troops have a hell of a lot more support and better epuipment than our brothers who fought in Vietnam or Korea.

It would discrace our generation in the armed forced to eternal shame. I know you bleeding hearts dont buy it, but then most bleeding hearts dont serve anyway so they wouldnt get it.

Krangthebrain · October 26th, 2006, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Well thats your opinion.

100 soldiers signed this petition out of how many thousands? Puts you in a minority.

You would not be in a foxhole of mine. I dont have time for whiners fighting next to me battle takes a bit of concentration, and determination. Neither of which someone who is crying and bitching about wanting to leave has.

Whine when you get back home, not when a buddy is needing you. Ashame you dont learn any of this in you MOS krang.

Character attacks, huh?

No I just don't agree with the war. It doesn't mean I won't put some lead in a Haji. I'll kill anyone who seeks to harm me and my buddies. I don't whine, I work my ass off and support our mission because that's my job.

But in my off time, as a citizen sitting at this fricking keyboard, I'll say whatever the frick I want.

Absolute Zero · October 26th, 2006, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Well thats your opinion.

100 soldiers signed this petition out of how many thousands? Puts you in a minority.

You would not be in a foxhole of mine. I dont have time for whiners fighting next to me battle takes a bit of concentration, and determination. Neither of which someone who is crying and bitching about wanting to leave has.

Whine when you get back home, not when a buddy is needing you. Ashame you dont learn any of this in you MOS krang.

Refresh my memory SWD, are you serving or have you served in the military? If so, did you know anyone like Krang that didn't buy into the politics behind the mission?

AZZenny · October 26th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Iraqis weren't Persians. Iranians are Persians.

Iraqis were, nevertheless, a fairly educated and developed, progressive, liberal/secular society for the region until Saddam really stomped on them, but that was a long time ago.

AZZenny · October 26th, 2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

If mutiny occurs in the army we need to bring back executions of traitors. Vietnam and Korea were a hell of a lot more wrong than Iraq. Our troops have a hell of a lot more support and better epuipment than our brothers who fought in Vietnam or Korea.

It would discrace our generation in the armed forced to eternal shame. I know you bleeding hearts dont buy it, but then most bleeding hearts dont serve anyway so they wouldnt get it.

Iraq is just about as wrong as Viet Nam and Korea -- we were LIED TO about any justification whatsoever to be there. The troops have been terribly led, under-equipped, under-manned to a severe extreme because the politics of a draft are unpalatable to those who would keep us in Iraq, the level and type of PTSD being seen in Iraqi war vets is just unbelievable -- makes Viet Vets look like pikers by comparison -- and we are being LIED TO about our lack of success, our reasons for staying, etc.

Rumsfeld's stated and promised aim when appointed was to de-militarize the decision-making in the armed services and turn it over to civilian direction. There are some scenarios where that might not be entirely a bad thing, but clearly the caliber of civilians has been as cruddy and incompetent as EVERYWHERE else in the Bush system.

This administration has our military in a death grip and doesn't seem to know it or care. It has our democracy in a death grip, and it is pleased. If the troops mutinied as a way to bring down a foul, corrupt leadership that is destroying the fabric of this country, more power to them. They'd be demanding accountability that us civilians don't seem to have the balls to do.

I just read one military analysis that suggested using US troops solely to secure the borders of Iraq, preventing infusions of weapon or men from outside, and pull out not from the country, but from Baghdad. Let the Shia and Sunni work it out in Baghdad their own way. Then the US can deal with whoever is left standing.

I still say turn the weaponry over to the Kurdish Peshmarga, tell Turkey and Iran to back off, and let them take control.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krangthebrain

Character attacks, huh?

No I just don't agree with the war. It doesn't mean I won't put some lead in a Haji. I'll kill anyone who seeks to harm me and my buddies. I don't whine, I work my ass off and support our mission because that's my job.

But in my off time, as a citizen sitting at this fricking keyboard, I'll say whatever the frick I want.

LOL you call my post total BS. Then you cry when I counter yours? Cmon man. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Then again didnt you say you think there are a ton of democrats in the military.

Lets just say this so we can end it now. You and I are/were in two totally different armies.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Zero

Refresh my memory SWD, are you serving or have you served in the military? If so, did you know anyone like Krang that didn't buy into the politics behind the mission?

I served almost 8 years. Mostly overseas in hot zones or hardship tours.

Yes, I didnt buy the politics in Somolia and Bosnia (two that occured during my time). I fully failed to buy into Bosnia and still think it was a war crime by Clinton and every other countrey that partcipated.

However, I volunteered. I knew I had to do as told. If someone tells you to charge a hill you do NOT say "Well before I do I want to start a petition against it and get some signitures" If I hear that in my squad we have a friendly fire incident and move up the hill.

The reason for this is no soldier onthe ground or civilian back home knows all of the circumstances that got us to where we are. Mistkaes can be made (Bosnia/Iraq) but we cannot fully understand all the consequences of every action.

Take the hill scenerio above. I have no idea why we MUST take the hill. You do your job and hope to hell the guy who told you to take it knows what they are doing.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZZenny

If the troops mutinied as a way to bring down a foul, corrupt leadership that is destroying the fabric of this country, more power to them. They'd be demanding accountability that us civilians don't seem to have the balls to do.

Careful what you wish for. If the military as a whole had a coup you will have guarenteed the loss of freedom and democracy.

AZZenny · October 26th, 2006, 07:04 AM

Depends. If its the extreme Evangelical officers and leadership running a revolt, then yes, democracy is just as screwed as it is if we let Bush et al continue to run us into the ground.

If it's the grunts and they 'mutiny' enough that the citizens can actually SEE what the F is going on, maybe not.

I'm not assuming a wholesale widespread mutiny -- more like the Reed article described -- small but increasingly visible refusals of conscience. There ARE legitimate grounds for refusal -- refusal to follow orders which constitute war crimes, for example. (In the Israeli military that unofficially extends to refusal to follow patently insane or grossly negligent orders.)

I wonder if one reason to keep as many of the troops in Iraq as long as possible is to dilute the impact they would have politically in stirring up a hornet's nest if a lot of them were to return at once.

CaptTurbo · October 26th, 2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZZenny

Depends. If its the extreme Evangelical officers and leadership running a revolt,

I dont care if its Major General Democrat Liberal. Absolute power corrupts. If our militray leadership revolted welcome to dictatorship.

Krangthebrain · October 26th, 2006, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

LOL you call my post total BS. Then you cry when I counter yours? Cmon man. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I said what you wrote was b.s. That's hardly a character attack. A soldier can disagree with the mission, but still perform the tasks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Then again didnt you say you think there are a ton of democrats in the military.

Yes there are. Almost every minority is a democrat and you have the occasional Caucasian Democrat as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swd1974

Lets just say this so we can end it now. You and I are/were in two totally different armies.

For sure and I'm MI as well (where high 120 GT scores are common). And I don't think that really matters much.