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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:09 PM   #91
Brian in Mesa
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strong Bad
that's actually a quote from Billy Graham. Same quote is in one of the books I have been reading on faith.
Yep, it's the actual quote made by Graham in the song too.

One of the next books I'm going to read is The Name by Franklin Graham, Billy's son.
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:10 PM   #92
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Another source:


If you’re clever, John tells his contemporaries, you’ll figure out who the Beast is: “This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the Beast, for it is a man’s number” (Revelation 13:18). Both Greek and Hebrew used letters of the alphabet as numbers, so every word had a numerical value. Modern scholars have noted that the name Nero Caesar, in Hebrew, adds up to 666. Nero (reigning 54-68AD) was the first emperor to slaughter Christians, after blaming them for the great fire in Rome in 64 AD. The apostles Peter and Paul died in his short, vicious persecution. Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death, “married” a boy named Sporus, delighted in being worshipped as a god, murdered his own mother and committed suicide after the Senate pronounced him insane. Nero was the epitome of everything that was wrong with a corrupt empire.

In fact, it was Rome’s insistence on actual worship of the emperor as a god that would prove to be the flash point of conflict between empire and church. Caesar Augustus, the first Roman emperor, began his rule in 29 BC and succeeded in uniting “all the world” (Luke 2:1). Some of Rome’s subjects in the east decided that Caesar Augustus was divine, a god to be worshipped. The provincial council in the area of the seven churches established a religious center at Pergamum in 29 BC to honor Roma and Augustus. John called this regional seat of idolatry the place “where Satan’s throne is” (Revelation 2:13). Roma was the goddess personifying Rome and John casts her as a whore in Revelation 17. Augustus was even deemed the “son of a god” because his adopted father, Julius Caesar, was thought to have become divine at his death. By the time John was writing Revelation, at least 35 cities in the province had climbed on the emperor-worship bandwagon. At Ephesus, the emperor cult had expanded to the point that in 89-90 AD, the city erected a magnificent new temple to the reigning emperor, Domitian, complete with a 25 foot tall statue for worship.

The following inscription served as the ultimate pledge of allegiance that members of the empire were called upon to make: “I swear by Jupiter, the earth, the Sun, by all the gods and goddesses, and by Caesar Augustus himself that I will be loyal to Caesar Augustus and to his children and descendants all my life in word, deed and thought…”



http://jeremy.wayneolson.com/archives/000438.html
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:11 PM   #93
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Re: Another source:


Quote:
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
If you’re clever, John tells his contemporaries, you’ll figure out who the Beast is: “This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the Beast, for it is a man’s number” (Revelation 13:18). Both Greek and Hebrew used letters of the alphabet as numbers, so every word had a numerical value. Modern scholars have noted that the name Nero Caesar, in Hebrew, adds up to 666. Nero (reigning 54-68AD) was the first emperor to slaughter Christians, after blaming them for the great fire in Rome in 64 AD. The apostles Peter and Paul died in his short, vicious persecution. Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death, “married” a boy named Sporus, delighted in being worshipped as a god, murdered his own mother and committed suicide after the Senate pronounced him insane. Nero was the epitome of everything that was wrong with a corrupt empire.

In fact, it was Rome’s insistence on actual worship of the emperor as a god that would prove to be the flash point of conflict between empire and church. Caesar Augustus, the first Roman emperor, began his rule in 29 BC and succeeded in uniting “all the world” (Luke 2:1). Some of Rome’s subjects in the east decided that Caesar Augustus was divine, a god to be worshipped. The provincial council in the area of the seven churches established a religious center at Pergamum in 29 BC to honor Roma and Augustus. John called this regional seat of idolatry the place “where Satan’s throne is” (Revelation 2:13). Roma was the goddess personifying Rome and John casts her as a whore in Revelation 17. Augustus was even deemed the “son of a god” because his adopted father, Julius Caesar, was thought to have become divine at his death. By the time John was writing Revelation, at least 35 cities in the province had climbed on the emperor-worship bandwagon. At Ephesus, the emperor cult had expanded to the point that in 89-90 AD, the city erected a magnificent new temple to the reigning emperor, Domitian, complete with a 25 foot tall statue for worship.

The following inscription served as the ultimate pledge of allegiance that members of the empire were called upon to make: “I swear by Jupiter, the earth, the Sun, by all the gods and goddesses, and by Caesar Augustus himself that I will be loyal to Caesar Augustus and to his children and descendants all my life in word, deed and thought…”



http://jeremy.wayneolson.com/archives/000438.html
Continued...

On the emperors birthday and other empire-wide celebrations, people in all the provinces worshipped their ruler with processions, decorated houses, choral performances, prayers, incense and sacrifices. Pressure for Christians to participate would come not only from Roman officials but from friends and neighbors, as well

Christians would clearly have to choose. Was their loyalty to Christ or to the Beast? This is the choice which John puts before his readers, whether ancient or modern.
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:11 PM   #94
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
here is one installment....
Another installment was Ronald Wilson Reagan.

6 letters in first, middle and last names.

:roll:
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:14 PM   #95
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Another installment was Ronald Wilson Reagan.

6 letters in first, middle and last names.

:roll:
But that isn't true numerology....get your facts straight.
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:15 PM   #96
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Well I could give a you know what if you believe me or not..


But here is one installment....

http://www.scholarscorner.com/eschaton/MarkBeast.html

The Meaning of the Beast in Historical Context
First of all, we must ask: "What is this beast and what worship does it entail?" The beast appears to be the worship of money or mammon personified in a global system of commerce. In the days of John, business contracts in Roman and Greek world were signed and sealed and introduced in the name of a god or deity. The trade or merchant guilds were dedicated to a particular god or deity, and one could only join the guild by swearing allegiance to the Greek or Roman god and goddess. This system of commerce, tied up in Rome, with the worship of the Roman Emperor as a god, meant that all Christians were effectively excluded from commerce by the very nature of the economic system. Christians could not sign contracts in the name of the divine emperor, Apollo, or any other demon deity. Without a signature or allegiance to this beastly system of economics, Christians couldn't join merchant guilds for business or trade. To consent to this form of commerce, to buy and sell, was to deny God and to worship man and a human system of economics as the god of your life! Those who did not submit could not buy or sell. John, it seems, had a very clear image of just who and what this beast was at the time he wrote the book. It wasn't all prophetic future, it was a real problem the Church was facing at the time. The Christians were being told to compromise their faith in order to secure their economic futures.

For the Jews, the number 6 represented the number of man. Man was created on the 6th day. At the time Revelation, the Roman Emperors, or Caesars, were considered divine beings. Citizens were required to prove their loyalty to the State by offering incense as a sacrifice of worship to the Emperor as a god of Rome. The number value of the alphabet of Nero Caesar's name added up to 666. Thus, this number was the number of a Man who symbolized all of man's rebellion against God by making himself to be a god and by requiring others to worship him.

My point is that the worship of the beast is the worship of a human being, swearing allegiance to a human being and a human system of government and economics as one's chief loyalty and object of devotion. Those who submit to this system have already received this mark of the beast, whether they receive it physically on their bodies or not.
I have to admit an interesting read however...

The fall of Rome as you mention Nero occured in the year 64 A.D. and commited suicide in the year 68 A.D.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/timeline/

The year that John was exile on to the island of Patmos and began writing the book of Revelation was around the year 95 A.D.

http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/chron.html

Hence that theory seems kind of invalid...
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Last edited by Evil Ash; July 14th, 2003 at 05:28 PM.
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:15 PM   #97
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AND MORE


http://www.stpaulpres.org/pdf/revelations-study22.pdf
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:21 PM   #98
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Re: AND MORE


Quote:
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
http://www.stpaulpres.org/pdf/revelations-study22.pdf
This one is especially good from an academic view.

If it doesn't work at first, hit refresh.
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:48 PM   #99
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The number value of the alphabet of Nero Caesar's name added up to 666. Thus, this number was the number of a Man who symbolized all of man's rebellion against God by making himself to be a god and by requiring others to worship him.
Wow, the numbers of the letters of his name adding up to 666 seems like one of those thing someone accidentally discovers and runs with it.

The letters adding up completely DOES NOT mean his name MEANS 666.

Mike
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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:50 PM   #100
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Nero persecuting christians isn't even close to what the Anti-Christ will do according to Revelations...

He'll become a leaders which everyone will think is the new messiah come again, and it will be false....and he'll mark his followers with the Mark of the Beast.

Now tell me, did Nero do all that? Or did he just kill christians, kick his wife to death and die?

According to the Bible, if that happened and it was the Beast, we'd all be in heaven by now.

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Old July 14th, 2003, 05:57 PM   #101
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Chandler Mike
Wow, the numbers of the letters of his name adding up to 666 seems like one of those thing someone accidentally discovers and runs with it.

The letters adding up completely DOES NOT mean his name MEANS 666.

Mike
Mike that was the point that I was trying to make!! I mean, why go through all that trouble for a man that has been dead for around 30 years?

If the book of Revelations was written just for political reasons then why not use the "code" for the name of the emporer of Rome at the time?!
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Old July 14th, 2003, 08:41 PM   #102
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Evil Ash


If the book of Revelations was written just for political reasons then why not use the "code" for the name of the emporer of Rome at the time?!
You're obviously intelligent and well versed.....so you should know, or you are not adding that the time in which Revelations was written is up to debate. Some say it was written during Nero's rule, some say it was the other dude ( his name escapes me at this time ).
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Old July 14th, 2003, 08:43 PM   #103
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Chandler Mike
Wow, the numbers of the letters of his name adding up to 666 seems like one of those thing someone accidentally discovers and runs with it.

The letters adding up completely DOES NOT mean his name MEANS 666.

Mike
It wasn't found by accident. In other works created at the time, Nero was referred to 666 or 616, depending on the spelling used for Nero (Nero or Neron).
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Old July 14th, 2003, 08:46 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chandler Mike
Nero persecuting christians isn't even close to what the Anti-Christ will do according to Revelations...

He'll become a leaders which everyone will think is the new messiah come again, and it will be false....and he'll mark his followers with the Mark of the Beast.

Now tell me, did Nero do all that? Or did he just kill christians, kick his wife to death and die?

According to the Bible, if that happened and it was the Beast, we'd all be in heaven by now.

Mike
Nero forced the citizens of Rome (including those in Judea) to worship him as a God.

The mark, is a figurative mark, not one seen by the eye.

To a Christian, obviously you understand that worshipping Nero above God was a big problem at the time.

Actually the more I look into this topic, the more evidence I see that Revelations is not only talking about Nero, but also Rome itself. And I have to admit that the prophecy is very interesting, because in the end, Christianity prevailed over the Beast (Nero, and all other pagan Romans).
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Old July 14th, 2003, 09:37 PM   #105
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Passage from Revelations...


Quote:
Originally posted by Evil Ash
I have to admit an interesting read however...

The fall of Rome as you mention Nero occured in the year 64 A.D. and commited suicide in the year 68 A.D.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/timeline/

The year that John was exile on to the island of Patmos and began writing the book of Revelation was around the year 95 A.D.

http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/chron.html

Hence that theory seems kind of invalid...
Did anybody else see this???

Here is what my Bible says about the date of Revelation:

Clearly the Revelation was written in a period when Christians were threatened by Rome, undoubtedly by pressure to make them recant their faith and accept the cult of the emperor worship. Some maintain that the book was written during Nero's persecution of Christians after the burning of Rome in A.D. 64. However, the more probable date is during the harsh reign of that warped personality Domitian (A.D. 81-96). This later date for the book was held by the warly church Father Irenaeus and other early Christian writers, and it agrees better with the picture of complacency and defection of the churches in chapters 2 and 3. This date is widely accepted by modern scholars.





So, because those who believe that the in an earlier date for the book of revelation are the few and weird can we call them crackpots like you did regarding those scientists who believe in creation?
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