The Christian Challenge: - Page 16

Strong Bad · July 16th, 2003, 12:15 PM

So saying that you are playing stupid is the same as calling you stupid? Please.

Stop the playing stupid game.

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EndZone
So I looked some things up real quick the greek word in Luke to say "of the world" is Oikoumene which can mean "= the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire"

and

the greek word in Mark for "of the world" is Kosmos which can mean "any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort i.e. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews"

So you see it is not a contradiction

The biggest defense from Christian Fundamentalists: If it does sound like a contradiction, then it must have been meant as a figure of speech.

If it sounds like a figure of speech to me or a fable (Noahs Ark, Genesis, etc.) then I'm wrong... even though (IMO) reason tells me that God didn't create the word in seven days, and didn't create woman from a man's rib, etc.

This is exactly why I completely lost my faith. I don't like mainstream Christianity.

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirStefan32
Great post.

Let's examine the evidence that will prove beyond reasonable doubt that Jesus indeed existed:

1. Jewish Historian Josephus (A.D. 37- 100)
Writes in
Antiquities

"... the brother of Jesus, the so- called Christ, whose name was James."

He goes on to say that,
"At this time, there was a wise man who was called Jesus... Pilate condemned him to be condemned and die... (His disciples) reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crusifiction and that he was alive... He was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

2. Roman Historian, Cornelius Tacitus, (A.D. 55- 117)

"Hence to supress the rumor, he falsely charged ... and punished witht he most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called 'Christians' ... Christus, the founder of the name was put to death by Pontius Pilate."

3. Greek writer Lucian (2nd Century)
taken from the On the Death of Poregrine
"... the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult... Their first law- giver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they transgressed once and for all by denying the Greek gods, and by worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws."

Roman Historian and Court Official under Hadrian, (A.D. 120)
"... as the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigations of Chestus (another spelling for Christus or Christ), he expelled them from Rome."
Taken from The Life of Claudius.

The list can go on forever.

Recommnded readings:

1. Bruce Metzger, New Testament Texual Criticism

2. F.F. Bruce, New Testament Documents and Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament

3. Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

4. Norman Geisler, Christian Apologetics.

Stefan

EARTH TO STEFAN.....

No one is debating Jesus' existence.

SirStefan32 · July 16th, 2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EndZone
And for anyone who likes to read, there is a book called "A Case for Christ" written by Lee Strobel. He was an athiest investigative reporter who's wife "found religion" and he was sick of it so he went out and interviewed experts on both sides of most of the big issues. Very good read even if you are not a believer. It will clear up some of these myths that people continue to attack Christianity with.

That is an excellent books. I really related to it since I got saved under the similar circumstances.

I would also reccomend the "Case for Faith" as well, in which he expplains the eight biggest objections to Christianity.

Stefan

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strong Bad
So saying that you are playing stupid is the same as calling you stupid? Please. Stop the playing stupid game.

So if someone sees something that they feel is a contradiction (and the other nonbelievers or nonbiased observers agree) then they are playing stupid?

Chandler Mike · July 16th, 2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The biggest defense from Christian Fundamentalists: If it does sound like a contradiction, then it must have been meant as a figure of speech.

If it sounds like a figure of speech to me or a fable (Noahs Ark, Genesis, etc.) then I'm wrong... even though (IMO) reason tells me that God didn't create the word in seven days, and didn't create woman from a man's rib, etc.

This is exactly why I completely lost my faith. I don't like mainstream Christianity.

I think that figures of speech, fables and literal facts are pretty much easily figured out using common sense.

The problem lies in the fact that people don't believe some of the literal stories...like Noah, creation, etc. Of course if you don't believe in that, then anything in the Bible will be hard to believe/understand.

Mike

SirStefan32 · July 16th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
EARTH TO STEFAN.....

No one is debating Jesus' existence.

Excellent!
Now we have established that Jesus did exist, and we can move on to prove that Bibile is reliable.

Let me just read the rest of this debate. I have about 10 pages to go.

Stefan

Brian in Mesa · July 16th, 2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The biggest defense from Christian Fundamentalists: If it does sound like a contradiction, then it must have been meant as a figure of speech.

If it sounds like a figure of speech to me or a fable (Noahs Ark, Genesis, etc.) then I'm wrong... even though (IMO) reason tells me that God didn't create the word in seven days, and didn't create woman from a man's rib, etc.

This is exactly why I completely lost my faith. I don't like mainstream Christianity.

I love when people talk like this. It's pure irony.

They'll say they believe in "a god" that can do all things...but then they'll say that they don't really believe that the world was created in [six] days...or that a woman was created from a rib...

EndZone · July 16th, 2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The biggest defense from Christian Fundamentalists: If it does sound like a contradiction, then it must have been meant as a figure of speech.

If it sounds like a figure of speech to me or a fable (Noahs Ark, Genesis, etc.) then I'm wrong... even though (IMO) reason tells me that God didn't create the word in seven days, and didn't create woman from a man's rib, etc.

This is exactly why I completely lost my faith. I don't like mainstream Christianity.

I know that you understand that the books were written in different languages than English. Obviously some words are not easily interpereted. You have to look at the original language. Obviously you are not going to be able to see the entire world from a mountain top...I don't think that anyone has ever beleived that except maybe a child. You are taking things to the extreme and taking the phrases word by word and the meanings of those words that fit your arguement. I looked for the original writings and what they meant if that is being Fundamentalist...trying to decypher what something acutal means .

EndZone · July 16th, 2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
I love when people talk like this. It's pure irony.

They'll say they believe in "a god" that can do all things...but then they'll say that they don't really believe that the world was created in [six] days...or that a woman was created from a rib...

Yes there is a God that can have power over your reincarnation and where your "soul" goes but he can't perform miracles.

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chandler Mike
I think that figures of speech, fables and literal facts are pretty much easily figured out using common sense.

The problem lies in the fact that people don't believe some of the literal stories...like Noah, creation, etc. Of course if you don't believe in that, then anything in the Bible will be hard to believe/understand.

Mike

Here is how I look at the Bible:

1) Jesus was not divine. He was human. That doesn't mean that he didn't have a much closer relationship with God.

2) God DID create the world, though he did it through nature, not with a magic wand.

3) Jesus died. Physically. Not spiritually and I intrepret the story that his spirit lived on.

4)Noah's Ark is based on local mythology that predates the Old Testament.

5)Biblical writers had a poor understanding of the physical world, and it's quite apparent.

6) I believe that Jesus is the way.....but not exactly the way to heaven, but the way we should act on Earth. Charity and goodwill to others.

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirStefan32
Excellent!
Now we have established that Jesus did exist, and we can move on to prove that Bibile is reliable.

Let me just read the rest of this debate. I have about 10 pages to go.

Stefan

Well if you had read first, you would realize that we never WERE debating Jesus' existence.

Jesus EXISTED. That is a well documented, undebateable fact.

Krangthebrain · July 16th, 2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EndZone
I know that you understand that the books were written in different languages than English. Obviously some words are not easily interpereted. You have to look at the original language. Obviously you are not going to be able to see the entire world from a mountain top...I don't think that anyone has ever beleived that except maybe a child. You are taking things to the extreme and taking the phrases word by word and the meanings of those words that fit your arguement. I looked for the original writings and what they meant if that is being Fundamentalist...trying to decypher what something acutal means .

Actually that is the opposite of being Fundamentalist....

Fundys generally believe every word in the Bible is a fact.

Strong Bad · July 16th, 2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
So if someone sees something that they feel is a contradiction (and the other nonbelievers or nonbiased observers agree) then they are playing stupid?

How many times have you taken little bits and pieces of the Bible out of context and have been told that in such a case the Bible is speaking colorfully? Yet you continue to do it over and over and over and over again. How many times have they brought up the incomplete fossile record over and over and over and over again?

Brian in Mesa · July 16th, 2003, 12:28 PM

Krang - you can't have it both ways.

Either you believe Jesus is exactly who he said he was, or you believe he was a crazy man who just had some darn good ideas...