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WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court (search) is being asked to overturn an appeals court ruling that said the Constitution does not guarantee people a personal right to own a gun.
The court's past rulings on Second Amendment (search) gun rights - many in the 1800s - are a mess that should be straightened out when the justices return from their summer break, an appeal being filed Thursday at the court said.
The appeal relates to one of two closely watched cases from the liberal-leaning 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (search) in San Francisco. The high court will also decide later this year whether to review a 9th Circuit ruling that banned teacher-led reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools because of the phrase "under God."
The gun case includes an unlikely group of challengers - not the National Rifle Association (search) or other organized groups, but some rugby teammates and friends. They include a police SWAT officer, a Purple Heart recipient, a former Marine sniper, a parole officer, a stockbroker and others with varied political views. They had sued the state over laws banning high-powered weapons.
"Citizens need the Second Amendment for protection of their families, homes and businesses," their attorney and rugby teammate, Gary Gorski of Fair Oaks, Calif., wrote in the appeal of a ruling that upheld California's assault weapons ban.
The Second Amendment states, "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The 9th Circuit panel said the amendment's intent was to protect gun rights of militias, not individuals. A more conservative appeals court in New Orleans has ruled that individuals have a constitutional right to guns.
Eugene Volokh, a constitutional law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the Supreme Court's record on the Second Amendment is thin and odds are against the justices taking the case.
"The court hasn't jumped into it since 1939," he said. "At some point the Supreme Court will want to make sure it is interpreted consistently throughout the nation."
The case brings a politically charged issue to the court just before the presidential election. If justices agree to hear the case, it will be scheduled for argument next year.
Last year, gun-control advocates were dismayed by the Bush administration's endorsement of individual gun-ownership rights, in a filing at the Supreme Court that effectively reversed long-standing federal government policy on interpreting the Second Amendment.
The administration could weigh in now in this case. Mathew Nosanchuk, litigation director for the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center (search), said it's better strategy for the White House to steer clear of the issue. The California case involves a state assault weapons ban, and there is controversy over whether Congress should renew a federal assault weapons ban next year.
President Bush has said he supports extending the federal ban, but sentiment is strong in the GOP-controlled Congress to let the ban expire and Bush has not put much energy into efforts to extend it.
Some advocates on both sides probably want the justices to decline to review the 9th Circuit ruling, said gun rights attorney Stephen Halbrook. "It's a wild card. You really can't read where they'll go."
He also said the case is complicated because it involves questions about state authority to undercut gun rights and whether the challengers had standing to sue the state.
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"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
I like guns, but to be honest, our country would be much better without them all together.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Originally posted by SirStefan32 Hm, this could be the next great discussion.
Why do you think our country would be better off without guns?
No offense, but that's almost a silly question.
Less murders, less fatal gun related accidents, etc.
It's hard to argue the merits of owning guns, when every statistic says that it is more harmful than helpful.
7 out of 10 people killed by a gun, are killed with their own gun.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Do you really think that if we banned guns, there would be less crime? Do you think a criminal would obey the law and not have a gun?
I lived in Burlington for a while, and EVERYBODY has a gun or two there. There was almost no crime! Why? Because criminals are afraid to commit a crime because they know you have a gun.
I honestly think that if every law- obiding citizen was required to carry a gun, there would be very little crime.
I say put the criminals in prison forever, and let good citizens carry guns!
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"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Originally posted by SirStefan32 Do you really think that if we banned guns, there would be less crime? Do you think a criminal would obey the law and not have a gun?
I lived in Burlington for a while, and EVERYBODY has a gun or two there. There was almost no crime! Why? Because criminals are afraid to commit a crime because they know you have a gun.
I honestly think that if every law- obiding citizen was required to carry a gun, there would be very little crime.
I say put the criminals in prison forever, and let good citizens carry guns!
All very interesting points, but not necessarily good in practice.
Most murders are committed by those that you know, in the heat of passion, not for robbing you or whatever. It is actually very unlikely that you will be killed by a criminal with a gun, and much more likely that you will be killed by a friend, family member, or associate.
And exactly how large is Burlington, and what is the demographic makeup like? It doesn't prove much to me without knowing specifics.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
I have my Glock 9mm on me almost every second of everyday, thanks to my conceal and carry permit. I own multiple hand guns, rifles and shotguns and go out shooting when ever I can. But I really have a problem with gun freaks hiding behind the Second Amendment.
To be honest, I feel it is an outdated relic of our Country, building blocks that were necessary to allow individuals to rise up and qwell any situation that threatened the security of our country. With the police and military of our country today, we do not need guns. There is not a single solitary reason we would need to own a weapon. The countries that have banned guns have seen a significant decline in violent crimes. If the Supreme Court wanted to ban guns I would be the first in line to turn mine in.
Last edited by Ryanwb; July 6th, 2003 at 12:23 PM.
Originally posted by Krangthebrain I like guns, but to be honest, our country would be much better without them all together.
Removing the guns will not stop criminals. Removing guns will stop the accidental deaths ... which is a good thing, but the Constitution lists the rights of an individual, not an entire group or an entire country. Why would the 2nd amendment be any different?
Canada has gun laws. It took them awhile to see a lot of guns up there, but there is a lot of guns up there now. Gun laws won't stop people murdering others. That's a morality issue, not a legislative issue.
Originally posted by Ryanwb I have my Glock 9mm on me almost every second of everyday, thanks to my conceal and carry permit. I own multiple hand guns, rifles and shotguns and go out shooting when ever I can. But I really have a problem with gun freaks hiding behind the Second Amendment.
To be honest, I feel it is an outdated relic of our Country, building blocks that were necessary to allow individuals to rise up and qwell any situation that threatened the security of our country. With the police and military of our country today, we do not need guns. There is not a single solitary reason we would need to own a weapon. The countries that have banned guns have seen a significant decline in violent crimes. If the Supreme Court wanted to ban guns I would be the first in line to turn mine in.
Nice post Ryan!
The facts are very much on the anti-gun side, and it's good to see gun owners that see that.
Heck, I might get a gun someday just for the fun of it, but I realize that I'm putting myself in the position to harm myself more than help myself.
I was actually talking about this with a friend last night, and he told me a crazy anecdote. His friend's father was murdered in his house. The criminal robbed him, murdered him, and set the house on fire. His handgun was within feet for where his body was found. I hear many stories exactly like this, and the facts back up the belief that you are more likely to be killed than defend yourself.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
To clarify again: There is a very small chance that a "criminal" will hurt you (or kill you) with a gun. Most murder victims are killed by family, friends, or associates (basically people you wouldn't expect). Random violence is very rare.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
First and foremost I personally dont think you will ever see a day where guns are completely banned in this country. It will just never happen. So IMO its pretty much a moot point.
While Krang makes some good points. Yes most murders are are committed by someone close to you. The banning of guns would in no way change that statistic. Nor would it lower crime in this country. Guns any way you look at it are a deterrant to crime. But at the same time I know that there are people who are a little more bold with there criminal activities because of guns as well.
Wether guns were banned or not you will still see just as many criminals with guns as you do today. There is already a huge underground network of criminals selling stolen guns. Importing guns etc..... That would not change. In fact it would most likely get worse. While guns arent an addictive substance I would compare it alot to prohibition way back when. People want them and you arent going to stop it!
Would accidental deaths go down? I highly doubt that too. More then ever children growing up would be even more intrigued with guns and the stories about them and would be even more curious. Thus when they did see or handle a gun they would be even more careless IMO than they would if they grew up in a society that allows them and is educated about them.
Originally posted by Shane H
Would accidental deaths go down? I highly doubt that too. More then ever children growing up would be even more intrigued with guns and the stories about them and would be even more curious. Thus when they did see or handle a gun they would be even more careless IMO than they would if they grew up in a society that allows them and is educated about them.
Interesting topic though!
You make some great points Shane, but I highly doubt many six year olds would kill themselves with guns if they were illegal.
And I totally realize that it would be impossible to ban guns, but it would definitely be for the better.
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26-year-old Saermengsi last season rated average 25.1 minutes, with 7.5 hours, 2.7 times and 2.7 backboard secondary attack, he Yifusen general as the replacement came in March Yifusen injuries ever period of time, three matches in a row, his secondary attack will reach 10. By Sun team, he could strengthen outer lane line, but also as the replacement fullback scored his general customary activities in the stadium two wings. On the season Saermengsi-ball hit rate reached 30%. He was in flames and Jones made a three-year teammate, Jones said that the organizers he pitches, but he can also shooting. His shooting is deceptive.
Originally posted by Krangthebrain To clarify again: There is a very small chance that a "criminal" will hurt you (or kill you) with a gun. Most murder victims are killed by family, friends, or associates (basically people you wouldn't expect). Random violence is very rare.
Actually I heard on the radio about 5-10 yeaqrs ago that stat changed. At that time it was just as likely that you would be murdered by a stranger than a family member or friend.
Originally posted by Shane H
Would accidental deaths go down? I highly doubt that too. More then ever children growing up would be even more intrigued with guns and the stories about them and would be even more curious. Thus when they did see or handle a gun they would be even more careless IMO than they would if they grew up in a society that allows them and is educated about them.
Interesting topic though!
How would they be able to find a gun where they could actually pick it up and fire it? Accidental deaths would go down if the law abiding citizens would turn their guns in ... their children would not find them ...
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