Southern Independence

Dback Jon · June 23rd, 2003, 11:58 AM

Thought Krang and others from the south would be interested in this. There are still those out there that want to secede from the US!

I am going to post several articles, then give my opinion on this mess!

For a separate sovereign South

By HOLLY EDWARDS
Staff Writer

Growing up in Memphis, Franklin Sanders said he repeatedly heard of the day Union soldiers ravaged his grandparents' farm, stealing or killing every animal in their path — a tale that left Sanders with an abiding hatred of ''Yankees.''

''For as long as I could remember, I didn't wanted to be counted among a bunch of chicken thieves,'' said Sanders, who lives on a small farm between Waynesboro and Lawrenceburg, about 90 miles south of Nashville. ''When you're from the South, you take it in with your mother's milk. You're raised here, and it's your country.''

Frustrated by his perceptions — that Southern culture is being poisoned and that the federal government is bent on destroying the rights of its citizens — Sanders has joined thousands of people involved with the growing movement to form a separate Southern republic.

At the forefront of the movement is the League of the South, a pro-secession organization with an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 members in 26 states. Independently run Southern independence parties, registered as state political action committees, also have formed in Tennessee and throughout the country to raise money and support for the cause.

The notion of creating a separate Southern nation may sound crazy, and leaders of the movement concede they have a long, difficult road ahead. But many secession leaders are well-educated people who have developed a strategy and believe the U.S. Constitution supports their right to do so.

The Civil War might have ended 138 years ago, but as far as the secessionists are concerned, nothing has been settled — the federal government is still occupying the South by force and infringing on states' rights of self-government.

''The Civil War was about 'We will kill you if you try to leave,''' said Sanders, head of the League of the South steering committee for Tennessee. ''That is not a basis for voluntary government. It's like a husband shooting his wife because she wants a divorce.''

Secession leaders say creating an independent Southern nation would allow Southerners to have the kind of country they want — with sovereign state governments based upon Christianity, low taxes, no-gun control laws, a 10-year ban followed by strict curtailment of immigration and a locally controlled school system in which American history does not involve vilifying the South for slavery.

Some of the secessionists' views have prompted critics to charge them with trying to create a society based upon white supremacy — a charge secession leaders vehemently reject.

To build support, secession leaders are quietly rallying support around issues they believe Southerners hold dear, such as the right to bear arms, fly the Confederate flag and build monuments to fallen Civil War heroes.

When enough people are behind the movement, leaders say they will work to get candidates elected who support the creation of a Southern nation and eventually attempt to secede from the United States peacefully, using the U.S. Constitution as their legal foundation.

Secessionists say the Constitution was designed to guarantee states the right to leave the union voluntarily if such a move is backed by popular support, though some historians and legal experts dispute that claim.

''The Civil War was fought in part to decide whether states had the right to secede,'' said Suzanna Sherry, a law professor at Vanderbilt University. ''The war decided that the United States is not a collection of states but a nation.''

Madison Cook, the chairman of the Southern Independence Party of Tennessee, conceded that the process of forming a Southern nation would be long and difficult, and probably would not happen in his lifetime. But, he promised, someday the country would be in for a big surprise.

Now 54, Cook said he retired in 1994 as vice president of hotel operations for Trump Marina Hotel and Casino, formerly known as Trump Castle, in Atlantic City, N.J. He and his wife then built a house on 10 acres of land just outside Cookeville.

From this secluded location, Cook conducts most of the business of the independence party — which primarily consists of fielding phone calls, keeping up the Web site and ordering banners and bumper stickers.

Cook joined the secession movement in 1999, soon after attending a League of the South meeting in Flat Rock, NC. Concern over the federal government's powers and the progressive loss of individual liberties were repeated themes of the meeting, Cook said.

As a teenager growing up in Bethesda, Md., Cook said he was intensely interested in politics and campaigned for Barry Goldwater in the 1964 presidential election. Goldwater, the Republican candidate defeated by Lyndon Johnson, advocated many of the changes Cook and other secessionists support — greater state and local powers, a smaller federal government and cutbacks in federally subsidized social programs Goldwater viewed as communistic.

Cook said he believes the federal government's growing powers — particularly the expanding powers given the government by the 2001 USA Patriot Act — are a direct threat to democracy and individual rights.

''Hitler and Mussolini said the same thing, 'Give up your liberties, and we'll make you safe,''' Cook said.

In his passionate support of the Southern movement, Cook said he believes he is doing nothing less than saving the South from becoming part of an increasingly fascist and communistic state.

''I can see a time coming when we'll have to go through road blocks and show IDs to travel between states,'' he said.

''More than a million people have died defending the Constitution, but we won't defend its principles at home, and it breaks my heart.''

While Southern secession leaders say states' sovereignty is the driving force behind the movement, critics charge that the intent of the movement is more sinister — the creation of a Southern nation based upon white supremacy.

Heidi Beirich, a spokeswoman for the Southern Poverty Law Center who has investigated the secession effort, said support for the League of the South and other Confederate groups has grown in recent years.

The agency estimates that more than 10,000 people belong to the League of the South, while the league estimates its membership at about 15,000. The league and other secession groups do not make public the names of their members.

''They've gotten their second wind, and the real danger of the League of the South is that it's a racist organization,'' Beirich said. ''They don't believe in equality of the races, and they don't think slavery is bad.''

Leaders of the secession movement universally reject racism and say it has no place in Southern culture. Many said they see a double standard applied to white Southerners who want to celebrate their heritage.

''Other cultures are encouraged to express their pride, but when Southerners express their heritage, we're labeled racists and bigots,'' said Michael Hill of Tuscaloosa, Ala., the president of the League of the South. ''I cringe when I see the KKK and neo-Nazi groups appropriate the Confederate battle flag for their stupid ideas.''

Many involved with the movement say they are deeply concerned that the unique culture of the South is threatened by the influx of ''Yankees'' and immigrants.

While no concrete definition of Southern culture has been established, most pointed to several unifying themes — Christianity, good manners, a respect for tradition and a desire to be left alone.

For example, Hill's writings posted on the League of the South Web site describe a traditional view of Southern men and women.

''Our Southern women are world-famous for their beauty and charm, and feminism, thank the Lord, has not taken root here,'' Hill wrote, adding that Southern men still enjoy sports that demand toughness and carry risk, such as football and NASCAR.

''No guts, no glory,'' Hill wrote. ''Those Southern men who cannot measure up on the gridiron or race track still enjoy the thrill of shooting guns.''

He also writes that the League of the South ''wants to see a South where our borders are sealed against massive immigration; a South where the interests of the Southern people are protected from the ravages of multiculturalism and so-called diversity.''

For many in the Southern secession movement, Hill's call for aggressive protections of traditional Southern culture strikes an emotional chord .

''Southerners are a separate people; we are not the same people as in the North and West. We came from a different part of the British Isles,'' Sanders said. ''And a separate people are better off with a separate republic.''

Dback Jon · June 23rd, 2003, 11:59 AM

Where they have played their hand

Here is a brief rundown of some of the activities by secession supporters in the South:

• Georgia secession leaders were among those who helped defeat former Georgia Gov. Roy Barnes after he changed the state flag in 2001 to reduce the size of the Confederate symbol on it. Secession leaders now are mounting a campaign to defeat Barnes' successor, Gov. Sonny Purdue. A new state flag without a Confederate flag symbol was raised over the Capitol last month, and voters will decide between the new flag and the 2001 flag in a referendum next March. Secessionists say nothing less than the 1956 state flag, with its prominent Confederate symbol, is acceptable.

• The South Carolina Southern Party reported that it has gathered the 10,000 signatures needed to create a new state political party. Support for the movement grew after the Confederate flag was taken down from the statehouse dome in July 2000 and moved to a monument on the grounds. The NAACP has held a tourism boycott of South Carolina since 2000 to protest the flag's flying.

• Mississippi secessionists rallied support to keep the state flag before a 2001 referendum on whether to keep the current flag, with its prominent Confederate flag symbol, or replace it with a new design that did not include the symbol. Voters decided 2 to 1 to keep a variation of the Confederate flag.

• The League of the South has gathered more than 4,600 signatures on a petition posted on the organization's Web site calling for reparations to compensate Southerners for war crimes committed during the Civil War.

• More than 2,300 people have signed League of the South petitions supporting a declaration of Southern independence and Southern states' right to secede. However, only about 475 people have signed a petition to support proposed League of the South presidential candidate Donnie Kennedy, one of the founders of the league and co-author of the book The South Was Right.

Dback Jon · June 23rd, 2003, 11:59 AM

Debate is fierce on constitutionality

Staff Writer

Leaders of the Southern independence movement are pinning their political strategy on what they argue is a Constitutional right to secede from the United States by popular vote.

Once enough candidates are elected to office, they say, a serious attempt to challenge what they consider the forcible occupation of the South can be launched.

But a Vanderbilt University law professor rejected that claim, saying the right to revolt might be a moral right but is not guaranteed by the Constitution.

''They can say they lost the war and have been annexed and therefore have a right to break free, but that is a moral, not a legal argument,'' said Suzanna Sherry, a Vanderbilt law professor.

Madison Cook, chairman of the Southern Independence Party, disagreed, saying the 10th Amendment specifically grants states sovereignty over the federal government.

''Every state came into the union voluntarily, and it naturally follows that states have a right to leave voluntarily,'' he said.

Sherry agreed that the Constitution is based upon citizens having a ''natural'' right to revolt as free people, but that does not mean they have a Constitutional right to revolt.

''The right to leave the country by the citizens' free will is not recognized by the Constitution,'' she said.

In Tennessee, the first strategic goal of the Southern secession movement is to gain the needed number of signatures — about 27,000— to create a new state political party, Cook said.

The independence party could then place candidates on the ballot, Cook said, adding that his organization is currently negotiating with potential political nominees in the next statewide election and expects to support three to four candidates in the election.

Cook declined to say which potential candidates he had spoken with.

There are about 3,100 members of the independence party in the state, Cook said, and the organization needs about 10,000 members in order to get enough signatures to form a party. He said he believed each member could get an additional two or three people to sign a petition in support of forming a new party.

To build support, the independence party has posted a petition on its Web site calling on the governor and legislature to abolish federal gun laws in the state because they are unconstitutional.

''This is a big issue for people in Tennessee, and a lot of people resent the infringement on gun rights,'' Cook said. ''I think this petition will resonate with people here and get them involved with the Southern independence party.''

Cook said he doesn't believe the state would ever rescind federal gun laws because it would involve the loss of federal money.

But, if 10,000 people sign the petition, he said it could be used to force state officials to admit the laws infringe on residents' Constitutional rights.

Other points of the organization's platform include:

• Citizens have the right to bear arms with no exceptions.

• Abortion is unconstitutional, morally wrong and runs counter to Christian ethics.

• The federal graduated income tax is based on Communist theory and should be replaced by a flat tax or state sales tax.

• Religion should be an integral part of the education system, business and government.

• Southern heritage and its symbols should be defended against attack by ''bigoted liberal socialist, politically correct hate groups.''

• State government has become ''a bloated bureaucratic drain'' on its citizens and should be reduced by 10%. State property and sales taxes should be reduced by 5%. No state income tax should be imposed.

Ryanwb · June 23rd, 2003, 12:00 PM

..I say let them go, most of them are welfare rednecks anyway

Krangthebrain · June 23rd, 2003, 12:04 PM

Good God...That is truly sick.

I love the south, but I reject the evils of southern culture.

Slavery. Intolerance. Gun culture. Sexism. Homophobia.

Krangthebrain · June 23rd, 2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanwb
..I say let them go, most of them are welfare rednecks anyway

Whatever.

Tell that to my grandfather who is worth over 10 million dollars.

Dback Jon · June 23rd, 2003, 12:16 PM

These guys are a bunch of bigoted wackos – basically the KKK with a nice name and suits instead of cloaks.

Quote:

''The Civil War was about 'We will kill you if you try to leave,''' said Sanders, head of the League of the South steering committee for Tennessee. ''That is not a basis for voluntary government. It's like a husband shooting his wife because she wants a divorce.''

Uh – no, the war was about your ancestors enslavement of another. The things that people are using now as justification for our invasion of Iraq, your ancestors did to blacks (and far worse).

Quote:

Secession leaders say creating an independent Southern nation would allow Southerners to have the kind of country they want — with sovereign state governments based upon Christianity, low taxes, no-gun control laws, a 10-year ban followed by strict curtailment of immigration and a locally controlled school system in which American history does not involve vilifying the South for slavery.”

So basically, they want to have a southern version of Iran – a theocracy where only those who espoused their extreme version of Christianity would be welcome. Also, throw in a little bit of revisionist Soviet history, and there you go. So slavery is no big deal?? Wanna bet there would be no First Amendment type guarantee of free-speech in these guys dream world?

Quote:

“Many involved with the movement say they are deeply concerned that the unique culture of the South is threatened by the influx of ''Yankees'' and immigrants.

While no concrete definition of Southern culture has been established, most pointed to several unifying themes — Christianity, good manners, a respect for tradition and a desire to be left alone.

For example, Hill's writings posted on the League of the South Web site describe a traditional view of Southern men and women.

''Our Southern women are world-famous for their beauty and charm, and feminism, thank the Lord, has not taken root here,'' Hill wrote, adding that Southern men still enjoy sports that demand toughness and carry risk, such as football and NASCAR.

So as long as the women stay in the kitchen, everything is ok?
NASCAR, demands toughness??

Quote:

''Southerners are a separate people; we are not the same people as in the North and West. We came from a different part of the British Isles,'' Sanders said. ''And a separate people are better off with a separate republic.''

Okey-dokey – if you say so…..

Krangthebrain · June 23rd, 2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dback Jon
These guys are a bunch of bigoted wackos – basically the KKK with a nice name and suits instead of cloaks.

Uh – no, the war was about your ancestors enslavement of another. The things that people are using now as justification for our invasion of Iraq, your ancestors did to blacks (and far worse).

So basically, they want to have a southern version of Iran – a theocracy where only those who espoused their extreme version of Christianity would be welcome. Also, throw in a little bit of revisionist Soviet history, and there you go. So slavery is no big deal?? Wanna bet there would be no First Amendment type guarantee of free-speech in these guys dream world?

So as long as the women stay in the kitchen, everything is ok?
NASCAR, demands toughness??

Okey-dokey – if you say so…..

I agree with most everything that you say, but the Civil War was not started over slavery. That's revisionists history. Now I will say that slavery was a part of it, but the south was being treated as a different country so cession was what southerners wanted.

The Emancipation Proclaimation freed not a single slave when it was enacted. Several Union states such as Maryland and Delaware, still owned slaves until after the war

My problem, I believe that the Civil War's outcome was the best, except for Reconstruction. Many southerners were treated unfairly, and groups such as the KKK were started as reaction.

I was all for taking the flag down in South Carolina. It was a symbol of slavery and oppression to the majority of the state, and I can't believe some were fighting so strongly in favor of it.

SirChaz · June 23rd, 2003, 01:15 PM

The real tragedy is "All men are created equal" was not realized from the beginning. That would have and should have put an end to slavery right there.

The Civil War started over the States right to leave the Union. Later slavery became an issue and is currently taught as the reason for the war.

I don't doubt some of these people are whacko, but aren't all people entitled to freedom and personal liberty?

I am for these people living how they want to live as long as it is not achieved at the expense of others.

tommcnabb · June 23rd, 2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanwb
..I say let them go, most of them are welfare rednecks anyway

I don't understand if you have a problem with welfare or with rednecks. If you think they go well together, please visit your local Arizona department of economic security office and take a poll of whose in there.

I would venture to say that the "rednecks" in there getting "assistance" are the minority.

Really, you could just count the english speaking people needing help.

Just my two cents,

Tom

Ryanwb · June 23rd, 2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Whatever.

Tell that to my grandfather who is worth over 10 million dollars.

Which 7-11 did he buy his ticket at?

tommcnabb · June 23rd, 2003, 01:26 PM

To be back on topic, I say good for them. To the people that oppose them I say

What are you scared of?

Are you jealous?

Why not create a United Republic of Liberal Left-Wingers?

I don't live in the South, nor do I plan to anytime soon and realistically I don't think they can really accomplish this anytime soon (see next 50 years) but hey, whatever floats their canoe.

I personally like it when people feel strongly enough about their personal convictions to do something about it, rather than piss and moan all day.

Even though it might not hold water, they actually believe in the cause and they act on it.

Good for them.

Tom

WizardOfAz · June 23rd, 2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Which 7-11 did he buy his ticket at?

Ouch....

tommcnabb · June 23rd, 2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Which 7-11 did he buy his ticket at?

Are you sure it wasn't the one you work at??

Chaplin · June 23rd, 2003, 01:37 PM

It's ironic, in that I believe that we've been in a civil war for years now, and it still continues--whether it be Republicans vs. Democrats, or black vs. white, there is absolutely no equality in this country--and there probably never will be. But cessessionist antagonization is not the way to address the issue.