Enjoy an Ads-Free ASFN - lighter and faster too! Become an ASFN-Contributor and help support the site.
Go Back   Arizona Sports Fans Network > Other Stuff > Politics and Religion

Welcome to ASFN Fan Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.


Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:12 PM   #1
MadCardDisease
Moderator
 
MadCardDisease's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chandler, Az
Posts: 7,445
A$FN: 16,825

Scientists Say Dirty Bomb Would Be a Dud


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...dirty_bomb_dud

By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

NEW YORK - The "dirty bomb" allegedly planned by terror suspect Jose Padilla would have been a dud, not the radiological threat portrayed last week by federal authorities, scientists say.

At a June 1 news conference, the Justice Department (news - web sites) said the alleged al-Qaida associate hoped to attack Americans by detonating "uranium wrapped with explosives" in order to spread radioactivity.

But uranium's extremely low radioactivity is harmless compared with high-radiation materials — such as cesium and cobalt isotopes used in medicine and industry that experts see as potential dirty bomb fuels.

"I used a 20-pound brick of uranium as a doorstop in my office," American nuclear physicist Peter D. Zimmerman, of King's College in London, said to illustrate the point.

Zimmerman, co-author of an expert analysis of dirty bombs for the U.S. National Defense University, said last week's government announcement was "extremely disturbing — because you cannot make a radiological dispersal device with uranium. There is just no significant radiation hazard."

Other specialists agreed. "It's the equivalent of blowing up lead," said physicist Ivan Oelrich of the Federation of American Scientists.

When Padilla was arrested in June 2002, after returning to Chicago from Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Pakistan, Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) said the ex-Chicago gang member and Muslim convert had planned a dirty bomb that could "cause mass death and injury." Washington, D.C., was the likely target, his department said.

But it wasn't until Deputy Attorney General James Comey's briefing for reporters last week that authorities said Padilla had uranium in mind for his radiological dispersal device, or RDD, the technical term for such a weapon. Comey said the detainee disclosed he'd also been sent to set off natural gas explosions in U.S. apartment buildings.

"Just saying the word `uranium,' the public automatically assumes, `Oh, it sounds bad,'" said physicist Charles Ferguson of the Washington office of California's Monterey Institute of International Studies. He co-authored one of the most detailed reports on the dirty-bomb threat.

Those studying the RDD potential envision a combination of explosives with a lethal radioisotope, such as cesium-137, diverted from use in cancer radiotherapy, for example, or from machines that irradiate food. Particularly if in powder form, it could spew intense radioactivity over a section of a city, making it uninhabitable.

Radiation from uranium, on the other hand, is billions of times less intense than that of cesium-137, cobalt-60 and other radioisotopes. It's not radioactivity but another property of uranium — its ability in some forms to sustain atomic chain reactions — that makes it a fuel for nuclear power and bombs.

The Justice Department didn't respond directly when asked this week whether it had consulted with experts and knew that uranium wouldn't make a dirty bomb.

Instead, spokesman Mark Corallo said Padilla's statements, in view of his al-Qaida links, made clear that he was "willing to cause devastating harm to innocent Americans."

Padilla has been held by the U.S. military since 2002 as an enemy combatant, without charge and with little access to lawyers. The Bush administration has been criticized for denying a U.S. citizen normal access to the courts. The Supreme Court is considering whether the government, in defending against terrorism, has such power.

Padilla's lawyer, Donna Newman, said Wednesday of the dirty-bomb allegation that U.S. authorities "should have known that this was nonsense."

"When they frightened everybody, what were they trying to do, if they knew better? To show the administration is on top of things?" she asked.

She wants the government to attempt to indict and try her client. "Maybe the problem is the evidence is so weak, it's laughable," she said.

Comey said the news conference was called "to help people understand the nature of the threat" Padilla posed.

Based on what he said were Padilla's admissions to interrogators, he described a "highly trained al-Qaida soldier" who accepted an assignment to blow up U.S. apartment buildings, and "planned to do even more by detonating a radiological device, a dirty bomb, in this country."

Spokesman Corallo reaffirmed this week that it was Padilla who said uranium would be used.

"If that's what he planned," physicist Oelrich said of Padilla, "it shows he doesn't know what he's talking about and hasn't done even rudimentary homework."

He wasn't the only one, according to a Justice Department summary of interrogations.

It said Abu Zubaydah, a top al-Qaida lieutenant now in U.S. custody, also envisioned a uranium device when urging Padilla to mount a U.S. attack. At another point, however, the summary said Zubaydah told Padilla the dirty bomb was "not as easy to do as they thought."

Padilla claims "he was never really planning to go through with" any of the terrorist assignment, Comey told reporters.

As a heavy metal, like lead, uranium poses one health risk: If ingested or inhaled, it can damage kidneys or other organs. But unlike radioisotopes, byproducts of nuclear reactors, uranium doesn't emit penetrating gamma rays that cause acute radiation poisoning. Instead, it slowly radiates weak alpha particles, which don't even penetrate skin. "Granted, it (uranium) could have a psychological effect" because of unfounded fears, said physicist Ferguson. But he said a government information campaign should quell any panic if such a weapon appeared.
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
__________________
Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks.

Last edited by MadCardDisease; June 9th, 2004 at 02:14 PM.
MadCardDisease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:18 PM   #2
MadCardDisease
Moderator
 
MadCardDisease's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chandler, Az
Posts: 7,445
A$FN: 16,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCardDisease
When Padilla was arrested in June 2002, after returning to Chicago from Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Pakistan, Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) said the ex-Chicago gang member and Muslim convert had planned a dirty bomb that could "cause mass death and injury." Washington, D.C., was the likely target, his department said.

But it wasn't until Deputy Attorney General James Comey's briefing for reporters last week that authorities said Padilla had uranium in mind for his radiological dispersal device, or RDD, the technical term for such a weapon. Comey said the detainee disclosed he'd also been sent to set off natural gas explosions in U.S. apartment buildings.
I can't wait to get rid of Ashcroft. He has to be the worst AG ever!
__________________
Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks.
MadCardDisease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:22 PM   #3
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Help me out here....so padilla had the intent for destruction but wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and was gonna use uranium (wrong material).

Well I'm glad they caught this guy before someone told padilla on how to build a better bomb or before he started blowing up apartments.
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:25 PM   #4
Dback Jon
Random Encounter
 
Dback Jon's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chandler
Posts: 24,136
A$FN: 49,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCardDisease
I can't wait to get rid of Ashcroft. He has to be the worst AG ever!
Amen!
Did you see/hear any of his testimony before the Senate yesterday? Arrogant and smug until both Republicans and Democrats started grilling him hard over the Justice Department's memo on torture, and his refusal to release it? It just may end with Ashcroft brought up on contempt of Congress Charges.
__________________



R.I.P Tim Minnick

The KING of Cards
Dback Jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:26 PM   #5
40yearfan
Takin' a bite outa the Niners
 
40yearfan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buckeye, AZ.
Posts: 24,194
A$FN: 7,001
Quote:
"I used a 20-pound brick of uranium as a doorstop in my office," American nuclear physicist Peter D. Zimmerman, of King's College in London, said to illustrate the point.
Mr. Zimmerman also stated that his only real frustration in life is the inability of he and his wife to have children. "I don't know why my sperm count is so low" he stated.
40yearfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:28 PM   #6
40yearfan
Takin' a bite outa the Niners
 
40yearfan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buckeye, AZ.
Posts: 24,194
A$FN: 7,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
Help me out here....so padilla had the intent for destruction but wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and was gonna use uranium (wrong material).

Well I'm glad they caught this guy before someone told padilla on how to build a better bomb or before he started blowing up apartments.
Djaughe, this article just told him what should be used.

Quote:
Those studying the RDD potential envision a combination of explosives with a lethal radioisotope, such as cesium-137, diverted from use in cancer radiotherapy, for example, or from machines that irradiate food. Particularly if in powder form, it could spew intense radioactivity over a section of a city, making it uninhabitable.
40yearfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:32 PM   #7
kerouac9
Banned
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 11,570
A$FN: 161
Isn't this kind of a non-story? He would never have been able to aquire uranium, anyway.

He eventually would've figured out that he would have been better served to bust into a dentist's office and cracking open the X-ray machine. There was a story on NPR, and apparently radiological materials are easily purchased on the black market.
kerouac9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:37 PM   #8
Dback Jon
Random Encounter
 
Dback Jon's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chandler
Posts: 24,136
A$FN: 49,214
40-year fan. I had some of the same thoughts on that. Which begs the question - how well are these types of items secured? What do you need to do to be able to buy it legally?
Have the regulations been changed since 9/11?
__________________



R.I.P Tim Minnick

The KING of Cards
Dback Jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:41 PM   #9
40yearfan
Takin' a bite outa the Niners
 
40yearfan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buckeye, AZ.
Posts: 24,194
A$FN: 7,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dback Jon
40-year fan. I had some of the same thoughts on that. Which begs the question - how well are these types of items secured? What do you need to do to be able to buy it legally?
Have the regulations been changed since 9/11?
Ya got me Dback. I would think the Nuclear Regulatory Commission would be in charge of any dispersals, but I can't state that for a fact and I'm not aware of any changes since 9/11.
40yearfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:57 PM   #10
nidan
The Terminator
 
nidan's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scottsdale
Posts: 15,312
A$FN: 12,489
Like he said guys, Uranium is not particularly dangerous, it is in fact very much like lead. ie you don't want a bar of it dropped on your foot.

There are three types of radiation, if you exlude nuetrons that are generated as part of the rediative deacy process. This is ok as nuetrons are really only important in the development of atomic weapons (or nuclear weapons as a 'detonator').

This has a pretty good definition

http://www.orau.gov/reacts/define.htm

The real danger comes from ingesting alpha emitting dust. Then it is on your lungs and hits the soft tissue directly, this is what the protectives suits you see ar edesigned to prevent.

Just about nothing stops gamma rays, or at the very least you need significant thickness of lead (or other dense material). This this ability to penetrate is also why they are not as dangeroous as you might think.

Unless a gamma ray source is highly active, the radition will just go right through you without interacting with any of your molecules. Its a statistical thing, as the intensisty of the radiation clims the probability of significant interaction goes up.

Airborne dust emitting Alpha or Beta are the real danger
__________________


DogTv
nidan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:59 PM   #11
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
I use to be certified to use nuclear guages to measure the compaction of soil. There is a tremendous amount of paper work and regulations that goes when taking responsibility of just having owning a guage.

Also in new york I got to operate nuke guns to measure the content of lead in paint - again heavy regulations kicked in on how we would transport (no subway rides) and store it.

I guess what I'm saying - the Nuclear Regulatory Agency does put alot of effort in tracking and checking in of users approved to handle these tools.
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 03:01 PM   #12
kerouac9
Banned
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 11,570
A$FN: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djaughe
I use to be certified to use nuclear guages to measure the compaction of soil. There is a tremendous amount of paper work and regulations that goes when taking responsibility of just having owning a guage.

Also in new york I got to operate nuke guns to measure the content of lead in paint - again heavy regulations kicked in on how we would transport (no subway rides) and store it.

I guess what I'm saying - the Nuclear Regulatory Agency does put alot of effort in tracking and checking in of users approved to handle these tools.


I was allowed to handle radioactive materials and use geiger counters as a Physics 101 student at ASU. There were no controls whatsover.
kerouac9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 03:03 PM   #13
jf-08
(Formerly jkf296)
 
jf-08's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Section 437 Row 1
Posts: 10,661
A$FN: 5,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerouac9


I was allowed to handle radioactive materials and use geiger counters as a Physics 101 student at ASU. There were no controls whatsover.
yeah, but you don't have 3 felonies on your resume
__________________
Read The Cardinal Rules of this Site!

Play hard, get dirty and never make eye-contact with the man you're going to blind-side. - Hardy Brown

RIP KoC and Danny_L.

jf-08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 03:06 PM   #14
Djaughe
Ads by Google
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 85249
Posts: 22,973
A$FN: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkf296
yeah, but you don't have 3 felonies on your resume
Hey they were all plea bargined!
Djaughe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2004, 03:08 PM   #15
Rivercard
Happy days are here again
 
Rivercard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Is everything
Posts: 8,823
A$FN: 8,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkf296
yeah, but you don't have 3 felonies on your resume
But he does have 6 fingers and three eyes now.
Rivercard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Sitemap:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:20 PM.



Subscribe in a reader
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios
Copyright © 2002 - 2006 ArizonaSportsFans.com
Inactive Reminders By Icora Web Design