justAndy

There have been times in he Earth's history when there was NO Polar ice AT all - the Warm Earth.
There have been Ice Ages in which a great percentage of the continents of Eurasia and the Americas were buried in ice.
In both cases life itself survied.
Life itself will survive WHATEVER the climate does in the next century.
Just because climate change may affect Homo "Sapiens" in a very negative way is no cause for concern - life will go on without us.
It's only our arrogance that makes us think that the Earth itself would suffer our absence.

__________________
"Seachicken - it's what's for dinner" - me (until the 'Hawks sweep the Cards)
Check out Dephinger on our MySpace page.

Russ Smith

He has absolutely no evidence to support his theory that warming will make the current reverse in the future or make it even more pronounced. At least if he does he didn't present it just referred to a prediction a model made.

Given that none of those models predicted the current would be reversed now, why would we assume they're going to be right in the future?

Remember it was only recently that the hansen crowd admitted the oscillation effect even existed. It's been talked about for years but they
always insisted it wasn't real until the NASA study made direct observations that proved it was in fact real and had reversed.

I'm thinking it's not a leap in an article about man made warming causing ice to melt to assume that when he wrote what he did he was making the larger connection that the ice melt is caused by fossil fuel burning. Yet it's clear the scientists behind Borenstein's story are well aware of the decadal oscillation yet you'll note nowhere in Borenstein's story does he mention it or if he does, I haven't found it?

IMHO he intentionally makes the switch back and forth between sea ice and land ice assuming that most people who read it won't know the distinction anyways. Sounds a lot worse to talk about rising sea levels so why not throw it in there even if it's not going to happen with sea ice melting?

__________________
"This space available"

TBaslim

From the article:

Quote:

Professor Ingolfsson is hopeful the bears will cope - and believes the palaeo-record will offer some reassurance.

So, according to the good Professor, polar bears are still at risk (due to pollution vs warming).

And makes the point to indicated that this is his interpretation with only a little bit of data.

Probably not safe to call the 'all clear' just yet.

__________________

Fickle fans like flickering fireflies flit through the funnel of fun.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Re-examine all you have been told...dismiss what insults your Soul."
- Walt Whitman

TBaslim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H...climate_change

Dunno if he is the 'godfather', but clearly a respected longtime researcher in area of climate change.

__________________

Fickle fans like flickering fireflies flit through the funnel of fun.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Re-examine all you have been told...dismiss what insults your Soul."
- Walt Whitman

GreenCard

I got two things from all this.
1. There is a good chance that in a few years I may come face to face with a Polar Bear here in Lake Havasu looking for a cool place to swim.
2. There is a very good chance that Hell may never freeze over.

I blame Russ for all this.

Russ Smith

Fair enough but if it does turn out that they survived a big climate swing already it does imply that they're might not be extinct in the near future as we keep being told. Of course there are actually populations of polar bears in the world right now that are growing, not shrinking, that's just not something we see in the popular media.

__________________
"This space available"

Russ Smith

Sorry that was sarcasm every time warming comes up here and I mention Hansen, Nidan tells me he's never heard of him or seen any of his work. I always tell him he has, he just didn't realize it.

if anybody in the world is the godfather of warming it's hansen, he was ridiculed in the 70's when the consensus was we were headed for an ice age, because he came out and said no we're not, in fact we're warming.

He testified before Congress about it in the late 80's that is what brought it to the attention of mainstream america.

__________________
"This space available"

Russ Smith

The 100 prominent scientists are part of an organization of several hundred scientists. The list linked here only has the 100 most prominent ones the larger list includes some wacko named George E. Smith who I like to call dad.





ttp://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_ id=d4b5fd23-802a-23ad-4565-3dce4095c360


Over 100 Prominent Scientists Warn UN Against 'Futile' Climate Control Efforts

"Significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming."

BALI, Indonesia - The UN climate conference met strong opposition Thursday from a team of over 100 prominent international scientists, who warned the UN, that attempting to control the Earth's climate was "ultimately futile."

The scientists, many of whom are current and former UN IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) scientists, sent an open letter to the UN Secretary-General questioning the scientific basis for climate fears and the UN's so-called "solutions."

"Attempts to prevent global climate change from occurring are ultimately futile, and constitute a tragic misallocation of resources that would be better spent on humanity's real and pressing problems," the letter signed by the scientists read. The December 13 letter was released to the public late Thursday. (LINK)

The letter was signed by renowned scientists such as Dr. Antonio Zichichi, president of the World Federation of Scientists; Dr. Reid Bryson, dubbed the "Father of Meteorology"; Atmospheric pioneer Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, formerly of the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute; MIT atmospheric scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen; UN scientist Dr. Vincent Gray of New Zealand; French climatologist Dr. Marcel Leroux of the University Jean Moulin; World authority on sea level Dr. Nils-Axel Morner of Stockholm University; Physicist Dr. Freeman Dyson of Princeton University; Physicist Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, chairman of the Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection in Poland; Paleoclimatologist Dr. Robert M. Carter of Australia; Former UN IPCC reviewer Geologist/Geochemist Dr. Tom V. Segalstad, head of the Geological Museum in Norway; and Dr. Edward J. Wegman, of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences.

"It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages. Geological, archaeological, oral and written histories all attest to the dramatic challenges posed to past societies from unanticipated changes in temperature, precipitation, winds and other climatic variables," the scientists wrote.

"In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is ‘settled,' significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming," the open letter added. [EPW Blog Note: To read about the latest peer-reviewed research debunking man-made climate fears, see: New Peer-Reviewed Scientific Studies Chill Global Warming Fears - LINK - & New Peer-Reviewed Study Finds: "Warming is naturally caused and shows no human influence." (LINK) - For a detailed analysis of how "consensus" has been promoted, see: Debunking The So-Called "Consensus" On Global Warming - LINK ]

The scientists' letter continued: "The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued increasingly alarming conclusions about the climatic influences of human-produced carbon dioxide (CO2), a non-polluting gas that is essential to plant photosynthesis. While we understand the evidence that has led them to view CO2 emissions as harmful, the IPCC's conclusions are quite inadequate as justification for implementing policies that will markedly diminish future prosperity. In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions."

"The IPCC Summaries for Policy Makers are the most widely read IPCC reports amongst politicians and non-scientists and are the basis for most climate change policy formulation. Yet these Summaries are prepared by a relatively small core writing team with the final drafts approved line-by-line by *government *representatives. The great *majority of IPCC contributors and *reviewers, and the tens of thousands of other scientists who are qualified to comment on these matters, are not involved in the preparation of these documents. The summaries therefore cannot properly be represented as a consensus view among experts," the letter added. [EPW Note: Only 52 scientists participated in the UN IPCC Summary for Policymakers in April 2007, according to the Associated Press. - LINK - An analysis by Australian climate researcher Dr. John Mclean in 2007 found the UN IPCC peer-review process to be "an illusion." LINK ]

__________________
"This space available"

Skkorpion

So maybe the old stories of ancient Norsemen mariners having found an ice-free Northwest passage and a verdant Greenland are true.

Climate change has always occurred and always will.

As a long-time environmentalist and early joiner of REP (Republicans for environmental protection), I am far more concerned about over-fishing the oceans and a dozen other issues than I am about climate change.

Now, as a registered independent and still an environmentalist, I refuse to buy into unsupported fossil-fuel caused global warning certainties. There are no certainties, just hypotheses and theories.

Al Gore isn't a scientist, he's a self-agrandizing fool.

Cleaner air? Yes. We need it so we can breathe better.

Research into alternative fuels? yes, for many reasons. and so on and so on.

And, oh my, the hole in the ozone layer is closing. Let's ignore that. A short time ago the growing hole in the ozone layer was the panic button.

Now, it's global warming.

Before, it was, save a tree, use plastic. Now, it's don't use plastic, do .... damned if I know.

Panic environmentalism is doing none of us any good. I'm not participating any more.

82CardsGrad

Gaddabout

My concern is the people who look at the worst-case scenario also want to decide how we respond, and while I have some confidence in their scientific credentials to project climate change, I have zero confidence in their ability to suggest policy and social response.

Big problems always require calm and rational response. You can't do that if you've spent the past 20 years ringing the alarm bells. Regardless of the speed of which we need to respond, human nature is to distrust major change. It requires a bit of stoicism from the world's leaders to engender trust.

__________________
Local commentary, sugar-free!
the desert gadabout

devilalum

At least we might finally find the Northwest Passage!

__________________
My avatar's bigger than yours.

ajcardfan

Skkorp, it looks like the ozone will not reach pre-1980 levels for another 60 to 60 years. It's interesting you bring that up though. The ozone COULD (not will) rebound because something was done to stop the problem.

One factor that depletes ozone is a colder stratosphere. Global Warming theory predicts a colder stratosphere as result (less heat escaping). That means warming could very well accelerate ozone depletion again, in spite of the CFC bans.

__________________
We live in a world which is full of misery and ignorance, and the plain duty of each and all of us is to try to make the little corner he can influence somewhat less miserable and somewhat less ignorant than it was before he entered it.

T.H. Huxley

nidan

I wouldn't say zero but I think I'd agree that the last person I'd want setting social policy is a scientist who spends all their time buried on highly specialized research.

What I do what is politicians that listen to them not ignore or bully them into changing reports.

__________________


DogTv

Skkorpion

This is a great thread. Thanks aj. Guess I'll have to check this forum more often.