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Old August 8th, 2008, 07:58 AM   #1
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Russia longing for USSR?


Russian Forces Invade Georgian Republic


MEGVREKISI, Georgia (Aug. 8) - Tensions over Georgia's rebel territory of South Ossetia exploded on Friday when Georgia tried to assert control over the region with tanks and rockets, and Russia sent forces to repel the assault.

Fighting between Georgian forces and Russian-backed separatists raged in and around Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, after Tbilisi sent troops to take back the territory, which broke away in the 1990s.

A senior Georgian security official said Russian jets had bombed the Vaziani military airbase outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi, and President Mikheil Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.
He also said Georgian forces had downed two Russian jets.

The crisis, the first to confront Russian President Dmitry Medvedev since he took office in May, looked close to spiraling into full-blown war in a region emerging as a key energy transit route, and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 10:06 AM   #2
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Old August 8th, 2008, 11:33 AM   #3
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AZZ - do you think the Georgians will retaliate by sending arms and help to Chechnya?
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Old August 9th, 2008, 10:42 AM   #4
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Russian troops raid Georgian town; scores dead


The fighting still rages. In brief, the Russians have taken South Ossetia and have started air raids on other towns not involved in the fighting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia

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OUTSIDE TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Russian tanks and troops rumbled into the separatist province of South Ossetia and Russian aircraft bombed a Georgian town Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left hundreds of civilians dead and wounded.


Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, sent in the armed convoys and combat aircraft to prevent Georgia from retaking control of its breakaway region. The military convoys included volunteers from around Russia's North Caucasus.


Georgia, a U.S. ally whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, launched a major offensive overnight Friday. Heavy rocket and artillery fire pounded the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, leaving much of the city in ruins.


Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow on Saturday that some 1,500 people have been killed in South Ossetia, with the death toll rising.


The figures could not be independently confirmed. But Tskhinvali residents who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.


The risk of the conflict setting off a wider war increased Saturday when Russian-supported separatists in another breakaway region, Abkhazia, launched air and artillery strikes to drive Georgian troops from their bridgehead.


Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow. Russia has granted its passports to most of their residents.


It was unclear which side controlled the provincial capital of South Ossetia by Saturday evening. Russian military commanders claimed they had driven Georgian forces out of Tskhinvali, which Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili denied. Smoke rose from the city, and intermittent artillery shelling and sporadic gunfire continued.


Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to force Georgia into a cease-fire. Saakashvili said he has proposed a cease-fire, but Medvedev's office said Saturday evening that Russia had not received his proposal.


Saakashvili, a U.S.-educated lawyer, long has pledged to restore Georgia's rule over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgia has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.


The fighting is the worst outbreak of hostilities since South Ossetia won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. It also is likely to increase tensions between Moscow and Washington, which Lavrov said should bear part of the blame for arming and training Georgian soldiers.


Moscow has said it needs to protect its peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia. Ethnic Ossetians live in the breakaway Georgian province and in the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.


Georgia has accused Russia of bombing its air bases and a Black Sea port, located on Georgian territory outside South Ossetia. One of the Russian airstrikes Saturday hit the Georgian town of Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin.


An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.


The Russian planes appeared to have been targeting a military base in Gori's outskirts that also sustained hits.


Alexander Lomaia, secretary of Georgia's Security Council, estimated that Russia has sent 2,500 troops into Georgia. The Russian military has not said how many of its troops were deployed.


One Russian unit deployed near Tskhinvali had to change location quickly Saturday when Georgian shells started to land nearby.
A 19-year-old Russian conscript, a member of a tank crew, said his unit was supposed to take part in a military exercise in North Ossetia but was suddenly sent into South Ossetia. The soldier, who asked not be named because he wasn't allowed to speak to reporters, said that his tank accompanied a motorized infantry unit that was hit by Georgian shelling and suffered casualties. The tank was broken and the soldiers were trying to fix it on the edge of the woods.


Georgian forces knocked out about 40 Russian tanks around Tskhinvali, said Georgia's Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze. "Our units are well-equipped with anti-tank rockets, and they thwarted a Russian tank attack," she told reporters.


The Interior Ministry said Russian warplanes bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital and near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline overnight. The ministry said two other military bases were hit, and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.


Lavrov said Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.


"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.


Asked whether Russia could bomb the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Lavrov answered: "I don't think the bombing is coming from Tbilisi, but whatever part of Georgia is used for this aggression is not safe."


The foreign minister said the United States should bear some of the blame for Georgia's aggression because of the role it played in arming and training Georgian troops.


It was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting. Both claim the battle started after the other side violated a cease-fire that had been declared just hours earlier after a week of sporadic clashes.


President Bush on Saturday urged an immediate halt to the fighting, which he said endangered peace throughout the volatile region. White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Bush had spoken very recently with Medvedev and Saakashvili.


Georgia, meanwhile, said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Lomaia. It also claimed to have captured two Russian pilots, who were shown on Georgian television.


The first Russian confirmation that its planes had been shot down came Saturday from Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff, who said two Russian planes were downed. He did not say where or when.


Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded. Russian military spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov accused Georgian troops of killing and wounded Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. Konashenkov's allegations couldn't be independently confirmed.


In Abkhazia, the separatist government said it intended to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.


Lomaia, the Georgian Security Council secretary, said that Georgian administrative buildings in the Kodori Gorge were bombed, but he blamed the attack on Russia.
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Old August 9th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #5
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Background to the conflict:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_s...MHwBb8N6RbbBAF

[edit] - even better, the Abkhaz (I don't even know how to make that word plural) are moving their troops to Georgia's border.
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Last edited by lvgentleman; August 9th, 2008 at 11:30 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2008, 01:02 PM   #6
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Wow, that is all getting out of hand at an amazingly fast pace.

Chechnya has been pretty calm for the past few years. I read an article not too long ago about how the capital had been completely rebuilt and they had voted for Putin's successor at 99%. But, maybe this will stir up that area as well?

What I don't know, is the extent to which Georgia and Abkhazia is motivated by Islam, like the Chechen separatists were.
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Old August 9th, 2008, 01:09 PM   #7
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Wow, that is all getting out of hand at an amazingly fast pace.

Chechnya has been pretty calm for the past few years. I read an article not too long ago about how the capital had been completely rebuilt and they had voted for Putin's successor at 99%. But, maybe this will stir up that area as well?

What I don't know, is the extent to which Georgia and Abkhazia is motivated by Islam, like the Chechen separatists were.
Georgia is Orthodox Christian.

Abkhazia is mainly Orthodox Christian, with some Sunni Muslims.
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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:10 PM   #8
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More Oil wars. Georgia is a key to the pipeline through the Black Sea.
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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:40 PM   #9
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Yup. and we all know that McCain is salavating over this, for he is going to think this will bolster his chances of winning. Plus, he too is longing for the USSR and a return to the cold war...
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Old August 10th, 2008, 10:23 PM   #10
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War by proxies. US screws Russia by supporting Kosovo, and now Putin gives Bush a finger by demolishing Georgia. This is a message to the West, Lithuania, Latvia and other "break away" countries. AND there is not a damn thing anybody can do about it.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 07:54 AM   #11
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War by proxies. US screws Russia by supporting Kosovo, and now Putin gives Bush a finger by demolishing Georgia. This is a message to the West, Lithuania, Latvia and other "break away" countries. AND there is not a damn thing anybody can do about it.
Not without risking a wider war.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 05:06 PM   #12
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/wo...491&ei=5087%0A

SENAKI, Georgia — Russian armored vehicles rolled 25 miles into western Georgia and took up positions at a military base here early Monday after issuing an ultimatum to Georgia to disarm its troops, along the boundary with the separatist territory of Abkhazia.

The Russian military advances represented the first time Russian forces invaded Georgia proper in the four-day-old conflict, which has unnerved the West and resurrected some Cold War anxieties. Georgian officials said Russian troops had moved into several other cities in western Georgia, holding out the prospect that fighting could escalate on a second front.


President Bush, little more than an hour after returning to Washington from the Olympics in Beijing, bluntly warned Russia that its military operations were damaging its reputation and were "unacceptable in the 21st century."

Appearing alone in the White House Rose Garden after meeting with his national security advisors, Mr. Bush intensified his public criticism of Russia’s government, though without mentioning President Dmitri A. Medvedev or Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin.

"The Russian government must respect Georgia’s territorial integrity and sovereignty," he said grimly. "The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on.”

He suggested that Russian officials have given assurances in diplomatic conversations that were contradicted by the military actions on the ground. And he urged that Russia accept the terms of a cease-fire that it had initially proposed, and Georgia has now accepted.

"Russia’s actions this week have raised serious questions about its intent in Georgia and the region," he said. "These actions have substantially damaged Russia’s standing in the world, and these actions jeopardize relations with the United States and Europe."

The conflict initially broke out last week around South Ossetia, the separatist enclave carved out of north-central Georgia. The level of fighting involved, however, remains uncertain amid the welter of inflated and contradictory reports from both Georgian and Russian sources. There are no independent observers with either country’s forces, and verifying claims about military activity was not immediately possible.

There were numerous but unconfirmed reports that Russian forces had occupied a major town just south of South Ossetia, Gori, which sits astride the country’s main east-west road and is home to a major military installation. Russia denied its troops were there.

In Senaki, south of the Abhaz border, two Russian tanks were parked inside the gate of a refurbished military base that until two days ago had been a Georgian military outpost. Russian soldiers who identified themselves as peacekeepers said that they now controlled the downtown base, located well outside the United Nations-designated zone in which Russian peacekeepers are allowed to operate tanks and heavy guns. An armored personnel carrier patrolled the village.

Residents said the Georgian military had fled without shooting. But bombs pounded the area, and residents said soldiers had told them they would not hurt civilians but would “annihilate” anyone in a uniform. By the end of the day, both the Russian and Georgian sides said the Russians had left Senaki, news agencies reported.

Along the road from Gori to Tblisi, about a 45-minute drive, residents were leaving Gori alongside Georgian military units heading towards the capital. Troops in desert gear rode in yellow municipal buses alongside columns of a dozen armored personnel carriers.

“We were the last to leave,” said an ambulance driver, who drove out hospital personnel as the Russians moved in. Speaking in Tblisi, he said it took them half an hour to take the city because the Georgian Army had pulled back. He showed video footage on his mobile phone of fire in the city. “We left behind all the equipment in the hospital and 80 bodies in the morgue,” said the driver, who declined to give his name.

President Mikheil Saakashvili addressed the nation, saying Russian troops had reached the main east-west road.

“The situation in Georgia is very difficult because Russia is doing everything possible to occupy the country,” Mr. Saakashvili told the Georgian Security Council.

He urged citizens not to panic and said Tblisi was not in immediate danger. “If Tbilisi comes under threat, I will inform the residents 12 hours in advance,” he said.

Twice during the day, Mr. Saakashvili fled a location for safety. One incident was in Tblisi, in which a plane flew overhead while he was on a conference call with reporters; the other was in Gori, when his security team suddenly rushed him away from a building as he was touring a bombing site.

Residents were also fleeing the port city of Poti, said Karina Tsotsoria, a Georgian woman living in Moscow, who said she had just spoken on the phone to her husband, Badri, who had fled their home when he saw television footage of approaching Russian tanks.

“He’s afraid,” she said. “We don’t know what their goals are. How can you be sure, when tanks approach your city, that they won’t shoot?”

The Russian ultimatum, issued by Maj. Gen. Sergei Chaban, commander of Russian peacekeeping forces in Abkhazia, called for Georgian troops to disarm in the Zugdidi District, along the border between Abkhazia and Georgia.

Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault on its troops by attacking South Ossetia, causing heavy civilian casualties. The Kremlin said its actions since then were intended to strike at Georgian military forces that had fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia and it did not intend a broader offensive deeper into Georgia.

However, Georgian officials said that over the weekend Russia had expanded its attacks on Georgia, moving tanks and troops through South Ossetia and advancing toward Gori. That maneuver, the Russian bombing of Tbilisi, and then the occupation of a Georgian military base in Senaki seemed to suggest that Russia’s aims in the conflict after four days of fighting had gone beyond securing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.

On Monday, in the conference call with reporters, Mr. Saakashvili said Georgian and Russian troops had fought fierce battles overnight as Russian tanks advanced toward Gori before being driven back, with heavy casualties on both sides. Russian planes also bombed targets across Georgia on Monday, including roads and bridges, he said, before fleeing to a bomb shelter because Russian planes were flying over the presidential palace in Tbilisi.

Explosions were seen in the fields around Gori around 12:35 p.m. Monday. There was no evidence of bombing in civilian areas of the town. But from high ground, plumes of white smoke and clouds on the outskirts were visible. It was unclear whether the explosions were caused by airstrikes or by shelling.

The French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, has been trying to arrange a cease-fire and Mr. Saakashvili said Georgia had signed one.

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry said it would agree to a cease-fire only if Georgia pulled its troops out of South Ossetia and signed an agreement banning the use of force against the territory. Mr. Saakashvili has made reuniting the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia with Georgia a centerpiece of his presidency.

On Monday, an Abkhaz official said that Abkhaz forces, backed by Russian paratroopers, would kill Georgian troops if they did not leave Kodori Gorge, the only part of the territory where Georgia has military forces. Abkhaz troops blocked the gorge and proposed the formation of a humanitarian corridor to allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave safely, the Abkhaz defense minister, Mirab Kishmariya, told the Russian news agency Interfax.

“If the Georgian troops don’t take advantage of this opportunity, then an operation to eliminate them will begin,” the minister said.

Russia’s escalation of the fighting, after Georgia offered a cease-fire and said it had pulled its troops out of South Ossetia, set the stage for an intense diplomatic confrontation with the United States.

The fighting raised tensions between Russia and its former cold-war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO grant the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West.

But Russia, emboldened by windfall profits from oil exports, is showing a resolve to reassert its dominance in a region it has always considered its “near abroad.”

The military action, which has involved air, naval and missile attacks, is the largest engagement by Russian forces outside its borders since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Strong diplomatic warnings from Mr. Bush and European leaders have been ignored, underscoring the limits of Western influence over Russia at a time when the rest of Europe depends heavily on Russian natural gas and the United States needs Moscow’s cooperation if it hopes to curtail what it believes is a nuclear weapons threat from Iran.

Vice President Dick Cheney, in a telephone conversation with the Georgian president on Monday, said “that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,” according to Mr. Cheney’s spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride.

European officials also levied pressure for an immediate cease-fire and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, which currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, could travel to the region as early as Tuesday.

“To try to finalize all the steps, we are taking around a document that has to be accepted by both sides,” he said.

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia won de facto autonomy from Georgia in fighting in the early 1990s. The current fighting broke out last week in South Ossetia when Georgian troops tried to take the capital in what seems to have been a major miscalculation. Russia says it is acting to protect residents there and to punish Georgia for the assault.

Reports of the death toll varied widely, from the low hundreds to more than 2,000, but none could be independently verified. Russian officials say more than 30,000 South Ossetians have fled into Russia.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 07:31 PM   #13
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Not without risking a wider war.
Exactly. Russia knows that US can't interfere in Georgia, just like US knew Russia couldn't interfere in Kosovo.
I was always curious as to how long it would take for Putin to start doing this.
This is scary, really really scary, and it's only going to get worse.
This is like USSR and Finland back in 1939.
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Old August 12th, 2008, 12:30 AM   #14
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"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul"
That's literally the first thing I thought of when I heard the news a few days ago. Chalk up one more asinine comment, and potentially one more policy failure, to W.

(And of course it would be unfair to pin this on W, but his general blase attitude regarding what the Russian government has done, from murdering journalists to unabashedly supporting certain regimes that do wish us will, and W's ill-founded and illogical and unexplained man love for Putin certainly didn't help.)
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Old August 12th, 2008, 09:02 AM   #15
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Georgia miscalculated and Russia was more than willing to make them pay.
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