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Jon, you have this "bust" whenever values and money are artifically messed with! Like, introducing a $700 billion bailout package... Or, like instructing Fannie and Freddie to lower lending standards to get more minorities and lower income people into homes!
I agree. Homeownership is a goal, but not for everyone. Deratives and other speculative instruments are as much to blame, it not more for the bust.
Lending standards -- as a semi-federal body, I don't have an issue with Fannie and Freddie have a little lower standards than private banks, to encourage homeownership. Their issue was insufficent reserves - ie blind faith that there would not be a higher default rate on these loans.
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I agree. Homeownership is a goal, but not for everyone. Deratives and other speculative instruments are as much to blame, it not more for the bust.
Lending standards -- as a semi-federal body, I don't have an issue with Fannie and Freddie have a little lower standards than private banks, to encourage homeownership. Their issue was insufficent reserves - ie blind faith that there would not be a higher default rate on these loans.
You can't have lower standards for Fan and Fred that is what got us here in the first place. Fan and Fred are the major players in these loans and they set the standard. Why would any bank not lower their qualifications to the level Fred and Fan do when theyare the ones going to purchase those loans anyway?
If anything they need to have stricter standards so banks that do risky loans do so at their own peril as the loan packages theyput together will only hold minimal if any value.
I agree. Homeownership is a goal, but not for everyone. Deratives and other speculative instruments are as much to blame, it not more for the bust.
Lending standards -- as a semi-federal body, I don't have an issue with Fannie and Freddie have a little lower standards than private banks, to encourage homeownership. Their issue was insufficent reserves - ie blind faith that there would not be a higher default rate on these loans.
Of course, this mess is truly a result of so many "things" gone wrong...
I truly hope our government and we as people can learn from all of this... Though, I am highly skeptical and truly believe that the bill passed today will one day bring about more pain, hardship and anguish than that which congress thought they avoided today with this stupid bill...
You can't have lower standards for Fan and Fred that is what got us here in the first place. Fan and Fred are the major players in these loans and they set the standard. Why would any bank not lower their qualifications to the level Fred and Fan do when theyare the ones going to purchase those loans anyway?
If anything they need to have stricter standards so banks that do risky loans do so at their own peril as the loan packages theyput together will only hold minimal if any value.
Frannie and Freddie were only one VERY small part of the mess. If the other areas (regulation, etc) hadn't failed, they would have either, or at least to the extent they are.
And I respectfully disagree. Think money is tight now? Abolish the Fed and return to the Gold Standard, we will have home ownership rate of 50% or less.
What Government are you willing to give up? Are you willing to let breadlines form again? Willing to go to bed at night knowing that there are sick and dying elderly Americans that can't get healthcare? Willing to sell the Grand Canyon to the highest bidder?
Tell me what you would cut, why, and what effect you think it would have on the country.
Abolishing the IRS does nothing. It is an agency. The Government, no matter how limited, still needs revenue, and a revenue enforcement agency. You can change the name, but the functions are still the same.
We had our biggest economic growth with an income tax. Seems to work just fine. Can it be streamlined? Yup. Would a flat tax with zero deductions be better. You bet.
I've already said what I'd cut. And I'd give up a lot more. Your argument pretends that a void would not be filled by private entity or donation. Did you know that the National Endowment of the Arts has a federal budget of $121 million yet private donations to the arts totaled $2.5 billion.
Scare tactics suggesting people dying in the streets in massive rates are ridiculous. I would prefer most social programs to be on the state levels if governmentally funded, not on the federal level. But even in the absence of the states stepping up, private donations and non-profits surely would.
And Jon, while you worry about home ownership under a gold standard or competing currency, I worry about a complete and total collapse of our fiat system that has us crushed under 10 trillions in debt, while medicare and social security will completely steamroll us in 20 years.
Citizens do not need to be paying personal income tax. The government can easily survive on 40 percent less money (which is what they get in PIT). And I'd advocate making them survive on 60 percent less money at a minimum, and invest the 20 percent in the debt.
There is no pretty picture of what is coming economically. This "bailout" is simply a bandaid on cancer...it won't work. It doesn't cure the underlying problem.
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Mr. Garrison: Kenny, would you please climb that ladder and take down the star above the stage?
Last edited by Donald; October 3rd, 2008 at 05:51 PM.
I've already said what I'd cut. And I'd give up a lot more. Your argument pretends that a void would not be filled by private entity or donation. Did you know that the National Endowment of the Arts has a federal budget of $121 million yet private donations to the arts totaled $2.5 billion.
Scare tactics suggesting people dying in the streets in massive rates are ridiculous. I would prefer most social programs to be on the state levels if governmentally funded, not on the federal level. But even in the absence of the states stepping up, private donations and non-profits surely would.
And Jon, while you worry about home ownership under a gold standard or competing currency, I worry about a complete and total collapse of our fiat system that has us crushed under 10 trillions in debt, while medicare and social security will completely steamroll us in 20 years.
Citizens do not need to be paying personal income tax. The government can easily survive on 40 percent less money (which is what they get in PIT). And I'd advocate making them survive on 60 percent less money at a minimum, and invest the 20 percent in the debt.
There is no pretty picture of what is coming economically. This "bailout" is simply a bandaid on cancer...it won't work. It doesn't cure the underlying problem.
If you have clearly stated what you would cut, I have missed it. Sounds like a good thread. People died in the streets before we had our social safety net. I am happy to help pay for it. Does it need reform? You betcha. Medicare and SS are not going to steam roll us in 20 years. And a few simple fixes will take care of that.
If you have clearly stated what you would cut, I have missed it. Sounds like a good thread. People died in the streets before we had our social safety net. I am happy to help pay for it. Does it need reform? You betcha. Medicare and SS are not going to steam roll us in 20 years. And a few simple fixes will take care of that.
Tell me those two simple fixes. Then tell me why David Walker disagrees with you.
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Mr. Garrison: Kenny, would you please climb that ladder and take down the star above the stage?
Jon, people die in the street today still. Federal bureaucracy is not a good answer.
The economic system of America has always made me want to work harder to achieve more. I see people who have improved their lives beyond mine and it gives me incentive to try harder to improve myself.
I think that is the beauty of the system.
The downside is that there will be people left behind, as Jon speaks of. The problem we have is finding balance.
We cannot support all, or no incentive to succeed will remain. At the same time, it is wrong to abandon compassion to those less fortunate.
I don't have the answers to solve this problem but I do believe that the answer lies in the middle. Some people need a boot in the ass and some people need to be coddled for them to succeed.
The economic system of America has always made me want to work harder to achieve more. I see people who have improved their lives beyond mine and it gives me incentive to try harder to improve myself.
I think that is the beauty of the system.
The downside is that there will be people left behind, as Jon speaks of. The problem we have is finding balance.
We cannot support all, or no incentive to succeed will remain. At the same time, it is wrong to abandon compassion to those less fortunate.
I don't have the answers to solve this problem but I do believe that the answer lies in the middle. Some people need a boot in the ass and some people need to be coddled for them to succeed.
I agree with you. I simply think that the federal bureacracy is not best suited to this help...I think it is better at the state, local and private levels.
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Quote:
Mr. Garrison: Kenny, would you please climb that ladder and take down the star above the stage?
Frannie and Freddie were only one VERY small part of the mess. If the other areas (regulation, etc) hadn't failed, they would have either, or at least to the extent they are.
You really arent following the ball here. Fred and Fan being government backed were MANDATED to accept these loans to get more people in homes.
This regulation you are calling for is exactly what caused this. The regulations forced them to take on these loans and so the bankers selling them to Fred and Fan lowered their standards since a buyer was gauranteed.
Fred and Fan were nothing but political puppets that took the brunt of this based on what our government demanded they do.
The economic system of America has always made me want to work harder to achieve more. I see people who have improved their lives beyond mine and it gives me incentive to try harder to improve myself.
I think that is the beauty of the system.
The downside is that there will be people left behind, as Jon speaks of. The problem we have is finding balance.
We cannot support all, or no incentive to succeed will remain. At the same time, it is wrong to abandon compassion to those less fortunate.
I don't have the answers to solve this problem but I do believe that the answer lies in the middle. Some people need a boot in the ass and some people need to be coddled for them to succeed.
Why do we really want a system that rewards those that can't function with the same results those of us working our rear ends off get?
The people left behind deserve to be because they earned it. When are we going to get back to personal responsibility in this country?
Ron Paul is a patriot and it is a shame more people do not see that.
He may not share your political views 100% but he is the loudest best voice we have currently for the constitution.
Dennis Kucinich is also a pariot although I barely agree with any of his policies he too saw this thing for what it is.
When those two start agreeing, America should take serious note.
This whole mess has people confused, scared and throwing blame in a thousand directions.
I understand that but don't do that, focus on the obvious, increased power to your government to payoff certain industries.
This bill was an outrage that people literally raised heck over with their Congresspersons, but still it passed.
It passed out of fear, fear is never never NEVER a good form of government.
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At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.
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