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1. Two accounts of the creation of Adam & Eve, that conflict with one another.
2. No mention of Jewish slaves in Egypt by the Egyptians and no archaelogical evidence for it. None.
3. Red Sea. Read Sea. Not really a miracle.
4. Many "messiahs" during the time Jesus walked the Earth, with very similar elements such as virgin birth, persecution, miracles, martyrdom, then resurrection.
5. No one truly knows who wrote the gospel. Any honest scholar will admit as much.
6. Noah's Ark; many floods in the region. Sumerian story with archaeological evidence that supports it. Euphrates floods over levies, man puts all kinds of goods on a boat, rides the water down the Euphrates. Very similar to Noah's Ark myth, yet it actually has real proof.
7. The 10 plagues on Egypt; why would a merciful and loving God kill the innocent children of the Egyptians....massive contradiction.
8. Books of the Bible chosen by committee; edited by man, not by God.
9. No proof of resurrection other than missing body....that proves nothing.
10. Biblical literalism is a sham; Corinthians states that it's a shame for a man to have long hair....Jesus had long hair. Many other contradictions.
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Last edited by Krangthebrain; May 10th, 2004 at 07:29 AM.
Summation of key points
2. No mention of Jewish slaves in Egypt by the Egyptians and no archaelogical evidence for it. None.
7. The 10 plagues on Egypt; why would a merciful and loving God kill the innocent children of the Egyptians....massive contradiction.
9. No proof of resurrection other than missing body....that proves nothing.
2. If the Israelites did escape from Egypt in the manner depicted by the bible then any record of them would have been stricken from history. That was par for the course for ancient Egypt, ie see all the pharohs erased from history by their successors.
7. Maybe you could show me the merciful and loving god in the old testament. Hint: there wasn't one. God didn't become gentle until the new testament up until that point he was one bad mofo.
9. Well there was "eyewitness" accounts of Christ after his ressurection when he visited the apostles before ascending into heaven.
The other points are pretty valid. I am surprised they didn't bring up the two accounts of Jesus's lineage and their vast difference as that is a pretty big one to me.
Gen. 1 we get an overview of what God did. In Gen. 2 the specifics of creation are given. This is much like an author today mentioning something in one chapter and saying,"but I'll go into that in greater detail later".
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"Well I'm near the edge and just thank God for time."-Blind Faith
2. If the Israelites did escape from Egypt in the manner depicted by the bible then any record of them would have been stricken from history. That was par for the course for ancient Egypt, ie see all the pharohs erased from history by their successors.
Of course, but that doesn't exactly prove it either. There is still no archaeological evidence of Jews wandering the desert for 40 years. Some scholars believe it never happened.
The literalist theologian they had on the show used the quote: "The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence." Which is true, but it doesn't make a compelling argument either
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardinalMike
7. Maybe you could show me the merciful and loving god in the old testament. Hint: there wasn't one. God didn't become gentle until the new testament up until that point he was one bad mofo.
I understand that, but I don't buy it either. God's morality doesn't change, and neither should the way he deals with mankind either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardinalMike
9. Well there was "eyewitness" accounts of Christ after his ressurection when he visited the apostles before ascending into heaven.
The other messiah stories had "eyewitnesses" too. It's funny that the only eyewitnesses tended to be believers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardinalMike
The other points are pretty valid. I am surprised they didn't bring up the two accounts of Jesus's lineage and their vast difference as that is a pretty big one to me.
Gen. 1 we get an overview of what God did. In Gen. 2 the specifics of creation are given. This is much like an author today mentioning something in one chapter and saying,"but I'll go into that in greater detail later".
It's also written by 2 authors....with the stories "meshed" together...
And it raises a valid question: What should be taken literally and what should not?
1. Two accounts of the creation of Adam & Eve, that conflict with one another.
2. No mention of Jewish slaves in Egypt by the Egyptians and no archaelogical evidence for it. None.
3. Red Sea. Read Sea. Not really a miracle.
4. Many "messiahs" during the time Jesus walked the Earth, with very similar elements such as virgin birth, persecution, miracles, martyrdom, then resurrection.
5. No one truly knows who wrote the gospel. Any honest scholar will admit as much.
6. Noah's Ark; many floods in the region. Sumerian story with archaeological evidence that supports it. Euphrates floods over levies, man puts all kinds of goods on a boat, rides the water down the Euphrates. Very similar to Noah's Ark myth, yet it actually has real proof.
7. The 10 plagues on Egypt; why would a merciful and loving God kill the innocent children of the Egyptians....massive contradiction.
8. Books of the Bible chosen by committee; edited by man, not by God.
9. No proof of resurrection other than missing body....that proves nothing.
10. Biblical literalism is a sham; Corinthians states that it's a shame for a man to have long hair....Jesus had long hair. Many other contradictions.
Logical conclusions from someone who does not fully understand what they have read.
1. Just because one account of creation is more detailed does not mean there are two DIFFERENT accounts of creation.
2 and 3. Why even mention the Red Sea miracle if there were never any slaves? Just because a mighty country and aremy like Egypt's was defeated by a bunch of slaves does not mean there were never any Israelite slaves in Egypt. What does Egypt say happened to Joseph?
4. Yes, there were many people who claimed to be the messiah throughout history. Eventually, each one would be proven not to be though and according to Israelite law stoned or killed another way. Their bodies remained dead. Jesus was cruxified -- not stoned for being proven to be a false messiah -- because the Jewish leaders of the day made up lies to get rid of him unjustly. Secondly, how come his dead body was never produced and proven to be dead even though there were all those claims of his ressurection? Who rolled away the stone? Why were all those Roman soldiers guarding his tomb derelict in their duty when they knew such things would mean their death?
5. No one knows who wrote the gospels? Where did this come from??? Here is a simple example that proves this notion to be nothing more then grabbing at straws trying to rationalize off their own personal belief:
John 21:20-24
Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. (This was the disciple who had leaned back against Jesus’ chest at the meal and asked, “Lord, who is the one who is going to betray you?”) So when Peter saw him, he asked Jesus, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus replied, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours? You follow me!” So the saying circulated among the brothers and sisters that this disciple was not going to die. But Jesus did not say to him that he was not going to die, but rather, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours?”
This is the disciple who testifies about these things and has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
So please have Penn and Teller (since when were they Biblical scholars anyway???) tell me how the author of the Gospel of John is in doubt? John identifies himself as the author.
6. There are also supporting evidences for a world wide flood. Do we really want to spin off into another Noah's Ark thread lasting 20+ pages long where you choose not interpret the evidence differently?
7. This point is a perfect example as someone who does not fully understand the situation yet ends up passing judgement. Who is really innocent before a holy and perfect God? Surely not me. Surely not you. Surely not any of you. Anyone who claims to be perfect or claims that any one of us -- even babies -- is innocent before God fails to grasp what sin before God is and fails to grasp that God cannot allow even the smallest of sins to be ignored and have Him remain holy.
8. I'll give you that the Bible has been chosen by committee and edited by man. What Penn and Teller (since when were they Biblical Scholars???) fail to understand is that the scriptures have also been protected by God.
2 Timothy 3:16 & 17
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.
9. Penn and Teller are simply wrong with this point. There were over 500 witnesses to the ressurrected body of Jesus. The gospels even record the reaction of someone who needed proof -- Thomas. What was his response? "My Lord and my God." Many others saw the resurrected body of Jesus after he was killed on the cross.
Although I have another question. If all the Romans had to do was prove that Jesus really was dead why didn't they just open the tomb and produce the body to show that Jesus was still dead?
10. Once again, a total misinterpretation of what Paul is saying. Taking a few sentences about the difference between a man's and woman's hair styles is not the point of those verses. In order to discover what Paul is really saying you must begin reading back to where the point originated from -- the begining of chapter 8 -- not just those few verses in chapter 11. Paul is talking about ... why have me explain it to you. Go read 1 Corinthians for yourself and you can figure it out for yourself -- unless you believe Penn and Teller are Biblical scholars and accept their explaination of a point lasting 3+ chapters by pointing to a verse or two?
It's also written by 2 authors....with the stories "meshed" together...
And it raises a valid question: What should be taken literally and what should not?
If you read the Bible it expects to be taken literally. The Bible is also very clear when it should not be taken literally. It tells the reader that it should not be taken literally. Therefore, it is very simple to know when to take the Bible literally and when not to take the Bible literally.
If you read the Bible it expects to be taken literally. The Bible is also very clear when it should not be taken literally. It tells the reader that it should not be taken literally. Therefore, it is very simple to know when to take the Bible literally and when not to take the Bible literally.
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