Brian in Mesa

I think the costs of our actions in Iraq outweigh the costs of doing nothing (ala Al Gore).

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HONEY BADGER DON'T CARE

AZCB34

I hope you understand I didn't think there wasn't a plan. I know there was a plan but the plan hasn't unfolded as easily as they thought. What I question is if there was a contingency plan and from what I know there doesn't seem to have been one. I base this thought on things my brother in law (Cpt who has top clearance...obviously I don't get the real stuff but I hear non sensitive things that NEVER make the media reports) has said and combined them with reports in the media.

Believe me, I know good things are happeneing. I know this personally because my wife and I have sent stuff over for the Iraqi kids. Hoping small things will help them work their way out of the situation they are/have been in. We don't hear all the good, in that I agree.

I hesitated using the word quagmire due to the general response it gets. For the soldiers, this is a quagmire. They are an in an out (insert joke here) group and this activity does make them feel vulnerable. They simply aren't trained for this stuff for the most part...certain units are trained for this but most aren't.

I am not pissed at Bush and am trying not to let this conversation degenrate. Bush was right to do what he did. I think he misinformed the public about the reasons but it is irrelevant at this point. For me it isn't a political thing. I am just discussing.

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Dream like you'll live forever, live like you will die today. -James Dean

WaywardFan

And perhaps I shouldn't have suggested I meant you. I'm speaking generally, concerning the daily clamor.

That's great!

Then I shall follow your lead. I appreciate the discussion.

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Fell deeds awake... Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and the Red Dawn...

Dback Jon

Wayward,
You are being either blind to reality or naive if you think the Bush Administration was expecting the type of resistance/situation that we are in now. Time and time again, Bush officials stated before the war that they expected to wrap things up in 3-4 months. They based their planning on best case scenarios - that the Iraqis would be so happy to overthrow Saddam that there would be little or no resistance movement. The cost to the US taxpayer was always minimized, and Rumsfeld scofed at those who said the Administration was being unrealistic in their cost estimates.

Troops have been extended far beyond what was planned. Troops that were originally told they would be home by now are now looking at months more of service. No rotation plan was in place, because Rumsfeld etc thought the troops would be home by now. Just this week Tennessee National Guard units, units that were told they would be home by August at the latest, have been extended for at least 6 more months, and yes, morale among them SUCKS.

Why can't you just admit that your heroes Busn and Rumsfeld screwed up royally, and were caught totally unprepared for the current situation in Iraq.

And it is perfectly OK for Democrats to criticize Bush for his lack of planning. This does not signify a lack of support for the troops. If anyone is not supporting the troops, it is the GOP - they keep trying to cut pay, etc.

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R.I.P Tim Minnick

The KING of Cards

Dback Jon

What would the cost of doing nothing been? We would not have created a breeding ground for terrorists, a lawless anarchy that is ripe for Al-Queda to exploit. Instead of taking on Iraq BEFORE al-Queda and the Taliban were vanquished, maybe concentrate on finishing the mission in Afganistan first.

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R.I.P Tim Minnick

The KING of Cards

WaywardFan

That’s entirely subjective and you know it. I can say with equal credence that you are either blind or naïve if you think it was going to be some cakewalk.

Funny when liberals are all of the sudden concerned about spending.

They wrapped up major combat operations in record time. As to the reconstruction they NEVER said they would ‘wrap thing up’ in 3-4 months. Every projection that I saw said at least 18 months if not 2-3 years.

As to your suggestion about best case scenarios. The Iraqis ARE happy for the overthrow. 95% of them aren’t doing anything against the troops. Hell, most of it is coming from terrorists from other countries.

You are looking at the 5% negative for political purposes and ignoring the overwhelming success.

As to the cost. Shall we go back to ANY topic of spending ever in the recording of our country, regardless of party, and see where spending ended up being on target or below? Please.

Agreed. You’re telling me this could’ve been accurately foretold?

How many classified briefings have you been to that gave you access to such information?

No doubt. And you’re not helping. You’re not, the Democratic leadership isn’t. Sure, you can spout free speech all you want. However, words mean things. How do you think they feel when they’re out there with their asses on the line protecting people and all you can do is harp on the operation because you hate Bush?

I’m still waiting for you to show they ‘screwed up royally’. They facilitated the most successful military operation in mankind. They are probably ahead in the reconstruction by any reasonable benchmarks and all you can do is call it a failure.

Excuse me???? The GOP trying to cut pay? I think you have your parties mixed up. It wasn’t the GOP trying to cut the military budget every year in the 90’s. It wasn’t the GOP who cut spending on the CIA. It wasn’t the GOP who voted to suspend any growth in spending for the military for 7 years! That was John Kerry’s vote, supported by the Dems.

And yes, they can criticize all they want, but are they right? They say there was lack of planning. That was disingenuous. They DID plan. The actualities just didn’t turn out that way. Are you saying that if it wasn’t Bush or Rumsfeld whoever else it would be would have precognition enough to foresee every contingency?

We’re 4 friggin months into the reconstruction of an entire country and you call it a miserable failure. I have a friend who’s getting a house built from scratch and THAT’S going to take 4 months.

You suppositions are weak and your conclusions are transparent.


That’s a non-issue and you know it. There are already countries that are breeding grounds for terrorists. All that’s happening is they are coming out of hiding to Iraq so we can kill them. That is a GOOD thing.

Actually, we can do both successfully, despite your partisan and layman analysis. I think you are being incredibly naïve to suggest that al-Qaeda and the Taliban would ever be totally vanquished, let alone done so in the scope of a year or so. Unrealistic expectations solely for partisan political gain.

All this being said, I’ll not be posting probably until the weekend is over. I’m incommunicado from here until then. So, have a good one.

Sean

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Fell deeds awake... Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and the Red Dawn...

SirStefan32

First of all, I can bot believe that somebody would suggest that Bush, Rummy, Rice, etc screwed up. This was a very sucessful military operation.

May I also remind you that Bush said that "War on terrorism is going to be a long war, and a different war," just a few days after 9-11. He said this before a single American soldier went to Afganistan or Iraq.

Jon, it takes time. Fighting terrorists is not easy.

As far as morale goes, it is not low. It could be higher, but our troops are just fine. I have four friends there.

Do they wish they woulkd go home and be with their families? Sure they do. Are they cursing Bush's name? Of course not. They understand what's going on and how important this is. Easy way to help them is to start supporting them.

Administration might have underestimated the number of terrorists in Iraq, and they definitely underestimated the damage Saddam has done to his own country.
These things are hard to predict.

I don't think that we need MORE troops there. I think we need DIFFERENT kind of troops there. Major Combat is over. It's time for anti- guerilla troops, it's time for SWAT teams, it's time for all kinds of special forces.

__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."

"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."

"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."

Cigarette Smoking Man

SirStefan32

Jon, have we been attacked on our own soil since 9-11?
You know why? Because we are fighting them ON THEIR HOME- COURT. Why is this so difficult to understand for the Libs?

Attracting all the terrorists to Iraq was one of the most brilliant strategic moves I ahve ever seen. If most of them are in Iraq, there are very few of them who are in the U.S.

__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."

"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."

"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."

Cigarette Smoking Man

schutd

I think it naive to assume that becasue we went into Iraq, a majority of terrorists would leave the US and go there to fight. I think there are as many here today as there were on Sept 10th 2001. It would make sense that they lay low during these times though, wouldnt you think?

Honestly, I dont feel there would have been any additional attacks in the US after Spet 11th regardless of whether or not we invaded Iraq. We certainly made out best effort to secure things at home, so there would have been far fewer opportunity for an attack regardless.

Brilliant stragegic move? think you're finding stratgy where none exists.

justAndy

... the people in the middle east hating us goes....
Maybe they resent the intrusion of euro/america onto their territory. Maybe they resent us propping up the illegitimate state known as Israel. Maybe we need to get off our oil addiction and develope new power sources. Then those backward looking, fundamentalist monotheists can be left to stew in their own ignorance.
btw - speaking of fundamentalists - check out "godhatesfags.com" for a look into what x-tianity could easily turn into in our country.

SirStefan32

__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."

"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."

"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."

Cigarette Smoking Man

WizardOfAz

Did you mean:

http://www.godhatesfigs.com/