Napolitano - Page 4

schutd · August 20th, 2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
Metro Phoenix does not need to be expansive. Metro Phoenix can be expansive because of the amount and price of available land. Unlike NYC Phoenix is not restricted by any water obstructions like the Atlantic Ocean or the Hudson River. Instead of having to build up like NYC, Phoenix could always build out. The only geographic obsticles here are the mountains. I much rather have the option of moving out then moving into some 15 story apartment building.

Which completely ignores my point that is it is more responsible to grow up than out. SUre Phoenix CAN grow out, but just because you can doesnt necessarily mean you should.

WizardOfAz · August 20th, 2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
Metro Phoenix can be expansive because of the amount and price of available land.

Metro Phoenix is expansive because the developers who really call the shots around here decided that's the way it was going to be -

whatchamacallit · August 20th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Why would the developers pass over cheaper land for building something higher?

"SUre Phoenix CAN grow out, but just because you can doesnt necessarily mean you should."

Can the say thing be said about building up? Sure Phoenix can build up, but just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should. People prefer having their own lawn, backyard, pool and garage. That's what makes Phoenix original. If all they cared was being restricted to a small space they would have built up. I don't see the big deal about acreage of metro Phoenix.

Brian in Mesa · August 20th, 2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dback Jon
The way it seems like everyone is calling for Government (and the Govenor) to do something makes it seem like the whole state of Arizona is filled with big-government-is-better liberals, instead of free market conservatives.

It is all supply and demands, fellows - capitalism at its best. Buy low, sell high - charge whatever the market will bear. That is what the conservative mantra is, correct? Get the government off our backs, andlet the free-market take care of everything.

Of course, the minute things get a bit uncomfortable, everyone turns to the government to do something - seems a bit hypocritical to me.

The governor is an elected official whose job it is to resolve issues like this. There are several things she can do to alleve this problem (temporarily relax driving-time restrictions for truckers so that more shipments can come in more quickly, pressure the EPA to temporarily relax summer requirements for treated gas, etc).

I don't care if the governor is a dem or a rep, it's their job to step in and do what's right to solve whatever comes up, to a degree. It's not a matter of people running to the government for help. It's people wanting their elected officials to do the job they were elected to do.

Redalert · August 20th, 2003, 07:57 PM

I hope what I heard tonight on ktar, isn't true. The DJ read a email from a guy claiming to be a tanker driver. He said, he works for the biggest tanker company in AZ and they are considering going on strike, as early as thursday. He said thay have not received a raise in 4yrs and they are not getting paid overtime right now. If this is true we are in deep !@#$.

I blame the current pipeline situation on the current and past legislatures. I think what has happened in the last couple of weeks( power outage and gas shortage) has proven that we the people have not been represented by either party for at least 50yrs. How can the greatest country in the world be using 48yr old petroleum lines and 50 million people lose electricity like someone flipped a switch.

WE NEED TOO WAKE UP PEOPLE!

We need to take care of the homefront first and foremost and we need to take back control of our country. The media is controlled by the government and lobbyist. The federal and state government are controlled by lobbyist and big business. While we are left waiting in line for hours(50 million people sitting in the dark) because our tax money was not used appropriately.
Why is it nobody new we were using a 48yr old pipeline until it became a crisis?
I am sorry for my rant, but i feel this not one persons fault and not one partys fault.
NOW LETS GET OUT THERE AND VOTE AND REMOVE THESE SCUMBAGS!

Brian in Mesa · August 20th, 2003, 08:58 PM

Great post, Redalert.

What I am wondering is: Are the terrorists in the world stupid, blind, or both?

The blackout, recent forest fires, gas "shortage," etc all expose how fragile some of the things we Americans take for granted really are.

If the terrorists really wanted to shake the American people, why not start forest fires in the rain-starved areas, and focus on knocking out power sources and/or fuel pipelines (from all reports, our pipeline is more the rule than the exception)?.

They would accomplish a lot more than plotting more hijackings...

AZCB34 · August 21st, 2003, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Great post, Redalert.

What I am wondering is: Are the terrorists in the world stupid, blind, or both?

The blackout, recent forest fires, gas "shortage," etc all expose how fragile some of the things we Americans take for granted really are.

If the terrorists really wanted to shake the American people, why not start forest fires in the rain-starved areas, and focus on knocking out power sources and/or fuel pipelines (from all reports, our pipeline is more the rule than the exception)?.

They would accomplish a lot more than plotting more hijackings...

Unfortunately Brian, death is more powerful to terrorists than any of the others...although recent events here show the "chaos" caused by a lousy pipeline break.

Terrorists want death and destruction. Pictures of those make the world news. Pictures of ruptured pipelines...well they don't.

schutd · August 21st, 2003, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
Why would the developers pass over cheaper land for building something higher?

"SUre Phoenix CAN grow out, but just because you can doesnt necessarily mean you should."

Can the say thing be said about building up? Sure Phoenix can build up, but just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should. People prefer having their own lawn, backyard, pool and garage. That's what makes Phoenix original. If all they cared was being restricted to a small space they would have built up. I don't see the big deal about acreage of metro Phoenix.

The problem lies in the now all too obvious fact that when infrastructure problems occur (like the one youre dealing with now) the vast expanse fo Phoenix makes it more difficult for services like Public Transportation to operate effectively. Ive already made my points as to why expanse is bad.

More pavement means higher temperatures.
Higher temperatures mean greater demand for resources
Greater demand causes greater strain on infrastructure
outages are more likely, and then you dont have any backup plan and you get gouged, and then people say that that abhorrant practice is just a factor of the market.

Hey thats fine, you live there cause you like it. The funny thing is, when I lived in az, standard practice was 15-20 foot setbacks, and 15 feet between homes. 4 homes per acre on average. Now builders are squeezing 5 and 6 homes per acre onto plots of land and youre telling me stories about privacy and open space? I bet my backyard in Brooklyn is bigger than most yards built in Phoenix over the last three years...

whatchamacallit · August 21st, 2003, 06:18 AM

Developers are in the business of making money. When I first moved to Phoenix what used to be the fringe areas have the bigger land/homes. Now that the cities have grown the devlopers have stopped building so many of those more expensive homes and have been building more smaller homes. I have no problem with that. I rather like not having a monsterous public transit struture running through the valley. I have lived in the NYC area and I always thought their elevated trains it made the place extra ugly. If public transit is important to you, it is best you don't live in Phoenix.

I heard this morning that Napolitano was told about the leak in the pipeline a month ago and did nothing.

WizardOfAz · August 21st, 2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
I heard this morning that Napolitano was told about the leak in the pipeline a month ago and did nothing.

Because she was assured by the company that they would have the pipe line fixed before it impacted the supply of fuel to the region.

whatchamacallit · August 22nd, 2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
Because she was assured by the company that they would have the pipe line fixed before it impacted the supply of fuel to the region.

Then Napolitano should have made sure the pipeline was fixed before it impacted the supply of fuel to the region.

So, why didn't she?

WizardOfAz · August 25th, 2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
Then Napolitano should have made sure the pipeline was fixed before it impacted the supply of fuel to the region.

So, why didn't she?

More government interference in a private company? Do you really want to go down that path?

whatchamacallit · August 25th, 2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
More government interference in a private company? Do you really want to go down that path?

it's not about government interference in a private company. It's about taking care of the state you were elected to govern. Napolitano should have made sure Phoenix had enough gas ... either by making sure the pipeline would be fixed in time or by making arrangements to have enough gas trucked in during the time the pipeline was down. She dropped the ball on this and it is costing us all.

WizardOfAz · August 25th, 2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whatchamacallit
it's not about government interference in a private company. It's about taking care of the state you were elected to govern. Napolitano should have made sure Phoenix had enough gas ... either by making sure the pipeline would be fixed in time or by making arrangements to have enough gas trucked in during the time the pipeline was down. She dropped the ball on this and it is costing us all.

So the "market" cannot correct itself, it needs the government to determine, in this particular case, how much gas is needed and what is a fair price for this product.

whatchamacallit · August 25th, 2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
So the "market" cannot correct itself, it needs the government to determine, in this particular case, how much gas is needed and what is a fair price for this product.

Again, no. The market has already determined how much gas is needed for Phoenix and surrounding cities to function and it is the governor's job to make sure that the resources for the cities that elected her into office are available and accessible.

What is the purpose of your refusal to admit that Napolitano dropped the ball on her responsibilites regarding the situation even though she knew about the leak a month before it was made public?