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Stefan, I hate to point this out but this message board is not a court of law. There is no beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not our responsibility to prove to you that which you choose not to believe. The posters on this board that don't believe in global warming are not right until proven wrong. We are discussing an issue that, I believe, affects everyone of us.
To that point, I have patiently given different scenarios where this problem might affect you. You have asked these questions and I have answered. However, I've not heard anything from you to substantiate the opposing view. It was my understanding that these threads were created to stimulate debate. Not just simply stating "I don't believe you". I consider myself to be an open minded individual and am more than willing to listen to other's points of view. Please give me something to help prove your point of view.
Exactly...the point of this is to encourage discussion not to "win arguements"
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Originally posted by SirStefan32 Produce some evidence Jon. An increse in tempreture bu 1.5 degrees every 100 years is not going to cut it. CO2 is not a polutant Jon, it is the lifeblood of the planet Earth.
Well them...What do you think about the ozone hole?
Anwhow, don't you think we should take care of our environment?
This is the only planet we have!
Originally posted by SirStefan32 Listen, I believe that God gave us the environment and our responsibility is to take care of it, but destroying our capitalistic economy because of 1.5 degree temperature increse in the last 100 years is flat-out insane.
Well...
environmental hazards (ie: global warming, ozone hole) will not effect this generation, nor the next generation, and probably not the next one...BUT...don't you think something needs to be done...
Insted of closing down factories, why not develpop electric cars, why not discover a way to not hurt the economy...
This might take some money now, but it would save money in the long run...
BTW...How do you (everyone, not singanlin out SirStefan) want the US to be remembered...the country that didn't care about the economy, just getting more $$$?
Cardiologist, I think we may be arguing seperate issues. I don't claim to know whether or not the global warming is a naturally occurring phenomenon or not. What I do know is that it is an issue either way. Just because it occurs naturally does not mean that it isn't an issue. Hurricane Isabel is a natural occurrence but it doesn't stop people from trying to protect themselves. And while asphalt, exhaust, aerosol sprays, et al may not be the direct cause, I think most of us here can agree that they certainly are not helping the issue.
My point is that global warming is a problem that affects everyone and everything on this planet and is not an issue (in my opinion) that should be swept under the rug because one party or the other thinks it's a problem or not. When all is said and done, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, catholic or muslim, etc. we all have only one planet to live on and if we don't put our selfish agendas aside it may not be here anymore. And I don't mean you, I, or anyone else on this board but our children's children. In my opinion, they deserve the chance to make the best of their lives.
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Wasted words on lower cases and capitals.
I lie for only you. And I lie well. Halleluh.
stompg, my point is this, if global warming is naturally occuring phenomenon are we not changing the environment by stopping it? Do we have the right to change a naturally occuring element in our world? Are not environmentalists for allowing nature to take it's course without being interfered with by man? That's why I would like more information before making a conclusion.
Well Cardiologist, I see your point and to a certain degree agree with it. However, we change the environment every day of our lives. We cut down trees to make paper. We pollute our natural air. We infringe upon species natural habitat. I guess my point is that if we are going to change nature shouldn't we also change it in a way that's beneficial as well? But I do think that you have a valid point.
Just to clarify, I'm just as guilty as everyone else. I own a gas guzzling SUV. I don't recycle like should. etc. I try to do my part but I an not innocent by any means. I just didn't want anyone to think that I'm getting up on my holier than thou soapbox.
__________________
Wasted words on lower cases and capitals.
I lie for only you. And I lie well. Halleluh.
Originally posted by stompg Stefan, I hate to point this out but this message board is not a court of law. There is no beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not our responsibility to prove to you that which you choose not to believe. The posters on this board that don't believe in global warming are not right until proven wrong. We are discussing an issue that, I believe, affects everyone of us.
To that point, I have patiently given different scenarios where this problem might affect you. You have asked these questions and I have answered. However, I've not heard anything from you to substantiate the opposing view. It was my understanding that these threads were created to stimulate debate. Not just simply stating "I don't believe you". I consider myself to be an open minded individual and am more than willing to listen to other's points of view. Please give me something to help prove your point of view.
To me, everything is a court of law. I am sorry but I can not believe that CO2 is responsible for 1.5 degree change in the temperature untill you show me that it is.
I am not a sheep who will follow anything youthrow out there. I am a reasonable human being who wants to see evidence before believing in something.
Also, I am really sorry, but this issue does NOT affect everybody. 90% of American people don't see environment as a major political issue. Only about 6% vote based on what candidates do about environment.
Untill you can prove that humans and CO2 are single- handedly responsible for all environmental problems, to me it is just a naturally occuring phenomenon, just something that happens.
When you prove that we are responsible for it, then I am going to start being concerned. Untill then, there are more important issues to worry about.
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Originally posted by stompg Well Cardiologist, I see your point and to a certain degree agree with it. However, we change the environment every day of our lives. We cut down trees to make paper. We pollute our natural air. We infringe upon species natural habitat. I guess my point is that if we are going to change nature shouldn't we also change it in a way that's beneficial as well? But I do think that you have a valid point.
Just to clarify, I'm just as guilty as everyone else. I own a gas guzzling SUV. I don't recycle like should. etc. I try to do my part but I an not innocent by any means. I just didn't want anyone to think that I'm getting up on my holier than thou soapbox.
Changing the environment in a benficial way for whom? For man? What about for nature? Is changing the environment for man's benefit good for nature? If so, in what ways?
Recycling, owning an efficient gas powered vehicle and all those other ways are not really taking care of the environment. They are simply ways that slow down man's destruction of the environment. That's what I don't like. These environmentalists drive to their protests in gas powered cars and they write their findings on paper made from trees. Who knows what their lunch was wrapped in?
You even admit that you drive an SUV when through this entire subject you have been defending against man's destruction of the environment. I am not trying to insult you, but you are really part of the problem, not the solution. Talk is cheap. If you are truly concerned about the environment and global warming you would get rid of your SUV and I don't mean just to resell it to someone who will use, you would make sure it wouldnt be driven again and you would go out and purchase some battery powered solar vehicle. It's great being concerned about the degradation of the environment, but if you are already not doing everything you can before complaining about others it's hypocritical.
Originally posted by Cardiologist Changing the environment in a benficial way for whom? For man? What about for nature? Is changing the environment for man's benefit good for nature? If so, in what ways?
Recycling, owning an efficient gas powered vehicle and all those other ways are not really taking care of the environment. They are simply ways that slow down man's destruction of the environment. That's what I don't like. These environmentalists drive to their protests in gas powered cars and they write their findings on paper made from trees. Who knows what their lunch was wrapped in?
You even admit that you drive an SUV when through this entire subject you have been defending against man's destruction of the environment. I am not trying to insult you, but you are really part of the problem, not the solution. Talk is cheap. If you are truly concerned about the environment and global warming you would get rid of your SUV and I don't mean just to resell it to someone who will use, you would make sure it wouldnt be driven again and you would go out and purchase some battery powered solar vehicle. It's great being concerned about the degradation of the environment, but if you are already not doing everything you can before complaining about others it's hypocritical.
You're taking this a lot farther than it needs to be. You have (along with SirStefan in his subtle way) instead turned this issue into ammunition to fuel a personal attack.
This was about the existance of a problem--in this case, global warming and the destruction of the environment.
Instead, you are using this thread as a forum to call people hypocrites. When stompg even admitted that he drives an SUV. What do you drive? Where are you from? Ever seen a thick layer of crap over the city of Phoenix? SS lives in Pennsylvania--I'm sure if he went to Pittsburgh he'd see how bad smog really is. And you don't think that's a problem?
Maybe you're right, maybe the temperature change is a natural occurence. IMO, it is not. There are more than a billion people in this world, and I don't know how many factories, sewage plants and automobiles. The odds are heavily in favor that any environmental changes are at least HELPED by the human race. That is just good old common sense.
But instead, you insist of degrading the thread into a pissing contest. SS has already done it, but now you've joined him. SS has no concept of anything other than the economy, but cannot even fathom the correlation between the environment (helping or hurting it) and the economy. And that's just ignorant. And irresponsible.
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---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
Originally posted by Chaplin You're taking this a lot farther than it needs to be. You have (along with SirStefan in his subtle way) instead turned this issue into ammunition to fuel a personal attack.
He is not fueling a personal attacks and neither am I. You are the one who's been insulting me. We are not taking this further than it needs to go. We are simply analyzing the issue, somethign that the other side refuses to do.
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Originally posted by Chaplin SS lives in Pennsylvania--I'm sure if he went to Pittsburgh he'd see how bad smog really is. And you don't think that's a problem?
I've been to Pittsburgh and I didn't really notice anything unusual.
I am more concerned with people's jobs, and about prosperity than I am about 1.5 degree increase in 100 years.
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Originally posted by Chaplin Maybe you're right, maybe the temperature change is a natural occurence. IMO, it is not. There are more than a billion people in this world, and I don't know how many factories, sewage plants and automobiles. The odds are heavily in favor that any environmental changes are at least HELPED by the human race. That is just good old common sense.
This is probably the most reasonable thing you've said in this thread. I already admitted that men has probably hurt the environment in some ways. Nobody argues that. I am simply arguing that blaming everything on the economy, especially when here is no hard evidence to prove that claim, is insane.
I am also arguing that we need to leave the economy alone. Economy is far too important to be destroyed because temperature rose 1.5 degrees in 100 freaking years. That is not a SIGNIFICANT problem. Maybe that's the way things work in nature.
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Originally posted by Chaplin SS has no concept of anything other than the economy, but cannot even fathom the correlation between the environment (helping or hurting it) and the economy. And that's just ignorant. And irresponsible.
You accuse Cardiologist and me of personal attacks?
As I said, the only person that has attacked anybody in this thread is you attacking me.
I see the corrolation between economy and the environment. If we accept the environmentalist agenda, our economy is going down the drain, and that would be ignorant, irresponsible, outrageous, and insane.
You are the one that doesn't see the corollation between environmental movement and our economy.
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Originally posted by SirStefan32 I am simply arguing that blaming everything on the economy, especially when here is no hard evidence to prove that claim, is insane.
This is where you show your ignorance of the issue. I have not once blamed the deterioration of our environment on the economy! I have said that they are LINKED, but I never said global warming was a result of the economy. I have also said that the big companies (and the politicians) of this country have a responsibility to reduce the things that are causing global warming.
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I am also arguing that we need to leave the economy alone. Economy is far too important to be destroyed because temperature rose 1.5 degrees in 100 freaking years. That is not a SIGNIFICANT problem. Maybe that's the way things work in nature.
Maybe this is about something Jon said, but this makes no sense to me.
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You accuse Cardiologist and me of personal attacks?
As I said, the only person that has attacked anybody in this thread is you attacking me.
Calling people hypocrites is an attack.
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I see the corrolation between economy and the environment. If we accept the environmentalist agenda, our economy is going down the drain, and that would be ignorant, irresponsible, outrageous, and insane.
You are the one that doesn't see the corollation between environmental movement and our economy.
Did I say we should follow the greenpeace agenda? Please quote me, because I'd like to see that. Here it is--SirStefan putting words into people's mouth, because he doesn't have his own proof (or even the understanding of the topic) to do otherwise.
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---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
Cardiologist called somebody a hypocrit, not me. You turned around and personally attacked me. I did not insult anybody. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, I don't have a problem with that. Similarly, I am entitled to my beliefs that our economy is more important than the theory that it hurts environment. If you want to answer an attack with an attack of your own, attack the person who attcked you or your political friends, not me.
I have un understanding of the topic. 1.5 increase in the temperature over a period of 100 years, not linked exclusively to big factories. That's all there is to it.
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"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Let me clear a few things up. Chaplin has no idea who I am. I am not his "political friend". He happened to stick up for what he believes was an unwarranted attack on me. While I appreciate the defense that does not mean that there is a conspiracy at work to defame anyone on this board. We happen to simply agree on this particular issue.
If you want to call me a hypocrite that is your perogative. I have admitted my faults openly so that I would not make people feel as though I was attacking them rather than expressing my views. I should have known that this is a no gloves message board and not worried about making things personal. All along I've simply tried to state that global warming is a problem and that is it. Not that we need to ruin the economy or all become Greenpeace members. Simply that global warming IS an issue. I've not asked anyone to start composts in their back yards and I've not asked anyone to stop driving a Hummer.
My only point is that global warming, natural occurrence or not, is an issue that should be considered along with all other political issues.
Just as a side note to cardiologist, if you would have read my posts you would see that I believe that global warming is an issue for all living creatures so changing it for the better would not just benefit man but all the creatures of the world alike. If this planet goes to hell in a handbasket, contrary to what many people believe, man is not the only creature affected.
__________________
Wasted words on lower cases and capitals.
I lie for only you. And I lie well. Halleluh.
I never called you a hypocrit. Why can't you just leave me alone. I don't insult people based on what they believe. Believe whatever the heck you want to believe, just let me believe what I believe and don't call me names based on my beliefs. Is that too much to ask for?
Stefan
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
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