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Originally posted by schutd I think you guys are looking at it wrong. AA doesnt imply inferiority of minorities, it acknowledges that they have historically been treated as such.
Im not going to argue its validity or not. I'm a white guy. I dont know. But I DO KNOW that its never kept me from getting into school, or getting a job, or applying for a loan or whatever.
But calling it racism is extreme and taking the conciliatory approach to it by saying it infers that minorities are indeed inferior is incorrect in my opinion.
Sure there are problems with the system, like there is any government program designed to help people in need. But I think you guys are a bit off base in your blanket condemnation of it.
Read my post. It clearly states why I am against it. It shows why AA is not a good thing. I do know many young white men who have been screwed by it! Just becasue you havent doesnt mean it doesnt happen!
Its just plain wrong and yes it is a form of racism.
Originally posted by Shane H Read my post. It clearly states why I am against it. It shows why AA is not a good thing. I do know many young white men who have been screwed by it! Just becasue you havent doesnt mean it doesnt happen!
Its just plain wrong and yes it is a form of racism.
Well duh. But its not my place to pick up the flag and carry the cause becasue it hasnt happened to me. I simple stated that it hadn't so it wasnt my place to telly ou whther or not its a good or bad thing.
Its NOT racism. Racism is a filthy word, and should be left only to those who hate others based solely on the color of their skin. Using a word like racism to describe a program, that while may effectively be argued as unfair, is simply a ploy to raise peoples ire. It's FAR easier to get people to agree with your stance when you can attach an ugly word like racism to that which you are refuting.
If you had two candidates- candidates A and B.
Applicant A has better qualifications. However, because of the color of cadidate B's skin, you go ahead and hire him, eventhough he is not as qualified as candidate A.
That is the very definition of racial dicrimination. How is it that if you hire a white man because he is white racism, and hiring a black man because he is black is not racism?
Stefan
__________________
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"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
If you had two candidates- candidates A and B.
Applicant A has better qualifications. However, because of the color of cadidate B's skin, you go ahead and hire him, eventhough he is not as qualified as candidate A.
That is the very definition of racial dicrimination. How is it that if you hire a white man because he is white racism, and hiring a black man because he is black is not racism?
Stefan
You can argue that the practice of AA can at times be descriminatory. Sure. Maybe you'll accuse me of mincing words. To me, racism comes with intent to purposefully keeping another person in a lesser position becasue of the color of ones skin. There has to be malice in attempt for it to be "racist"
AA does not do this purposefully. It is attempting to level the playing field between minorities, who have historically received an unfair shake at opportunity in this country be it from racism, or financial hardship or any number of other reasons. Again, I have not once said it is something that is perfect or even working properly. Im simply arguing that it is in NO WAY racist to try and do what AA is trying to do.
I think applying the term racist to AA is simply an attempt to vilify it by those who oppose it to garner support for thier cause.
AA may not be a good thing, but it is NOT racist.
If you hire a white man solely becasue he is white, and would not consider anyone else who isnt white it's racism. If you hire a black man, becasue he is a minority and you are under directive from the government to maintain some amount of racial equity, it might be counter productive, counter intuitive and even descriminory. But its NOT racist.
If you had two candidates- candidates A and B.
Applicant A has better qualifications. However, because of the color of cadidate B's skin, you go ahead and hire him, eventhough he is not as qualified as candidate A.
That is the very definition of racial dicrimination. How is it that if you hire a white man because he is white racism, and hiring a black man because he is black is not racism?
Stefan
__________________
"Don't try to threaten me Mulder! I've watched presidents die."
"If people would know the things I know, we'd all fall apart."
"Once again, tonight, the course of human history will be set by two unknown men standing in the shadows."
Originally posted by schutd
If you hire a white man solely becasue he is white, and would not consider anyone else who isnt white it's racism. If you hire a black man, becasue he is a minority and you are under directive from the government to maintain some amount of racial equity, it might be counter productive, counter intuitive and even descriminory. But its NOT racist.
Re-read that paragraph. Switch it around. If you hire a white man because of a government directive, what kind of response do you think you'll get from the minority community?
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Originally posted by schutd And I addressed every point in my post. Did you not see that?
Well we disagree. I think youre wrong, you think I am. Convo over.
Come on Dave, no need to be all high and mighty about it.
By the way, you have done a good job discussing how it isn't racism, but what do you think about AA itself. Are you for it? Against it? Your posts seem to indicate you are unsure.
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---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
Originally posted by Chaplin Re-read that paragraph. Switch it around. If you hire a white man because of a government directive, what kind of response do you think you'll get from the minority community?
Originally posted by Chaplin Come on Dave, no need to be all high and mighty about it.
By the way, you have done a good job discussing how it isn't racism, but what do you think about AA itself. Are you for it? Against it? Your posts seem to indicate you are unsure.
Not high and mighty at all. When I counterpoint every single one of someones points and their respose is to simply repost what I responded to, we are approaching the point of vicious circle and it's better to just quash it, than to watch it devolve into a pissing contest.
Im not sure about AA. I can honestly see peoples points on both sides. but Im not a minority, so I feel it unfounded to try and purport to understand the social and economic ramifications of being one. theres far more at play than I as a white guy could ever understand.
I might have a bit too sensitive perspective on it as well. My personal belief of what racism is differs from the un emotional dictionary definition of it, so I can't argue my point very well either I suppose, but I was trying to make it so others might be a bit more understanding, but that aint working with the conservative set here.
Im not arguing finer points of AA here, Im arguing that the only reason people call AA racist is to attach a vilified perception to the notion of what its supposed to do, which makes it easier for them to garner support for their position against it.
Originally posted by Chaplin Sure it is. Why can't you talk about that?
Cause its not part of the point I'm trying to make. Youre talking hypotheticals, and hyptheticals that will never happen becasue the white man has ALWAYS held all the power in this country, so theres no real point to discuss it.
Im not arguing finer points of AA here, Im arguing that the only reason people call AA racist is to attach a vilified perception to the notion of what its supposed to do, which makes it easier for them to garner support for their position against it.
Fair enough. As for me, I DO believe at its basest form, AA is government-sanctioned racism.
Like you said, the word "racism" usually implies buring crosses and seperate sections of buses. But to me, racism is racism. We live in a society in which the issue or racism is based on history. No other major issue today has as much dependence on what happened in the past. Most issues are based on the future, such as abortion.
You look at minorities who feel they have been discriminated against for years. But how many of those have actually experienced racism in its most pure form? I'd guess very little. As white people, I feel we constantly live under the pressure that anything you say to or about a minority can be construed as racism. Yet if a minority says the exact same thing about white people, it's just an opinion based on historical pretext.
That's no way to live.
AA takes the idea and perpetuates it in order to help minorities. The intent is honorable, no question, but it just isn't practical. Why? Because it is reverse discrimination, which by definition, is racism. Not the Ku Klux Klan form of racism that is easy to be inferred, but to me, a much worse form--racism disguised as being helpful.
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