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Originally posted by Chaplin
You love to group all Democrats into one demographic.
Would you prefer I say all democrats and then list 200 or so exception groups?
I think I can be fair and say by and large that Dems are trying their hardest to get rid of Bush. There are some exceptions, and I don't think I have to acknowledge them for your benefit to know they are there.
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Clark does not represent all Democrats and all Democrats don't represent Clark.
You are of course right, but I think if they see him as the most likely to defeat Bush they'll seriously consider supporting him. I mean, he's left on the issues so they can't have a beef against him on that.
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Personally, with the exception of the affirmative action issue, I pretty much agree with all his stances above--although I am leary on the whole UN thing, as you are as well.
Who do you currently like then? Consider the 9, Gore, Hillary, Clark and Bush?
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Fell deeds awake... Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and the Red Dawn...
You are of course right, but I think if they see him as the most likely to defeat Bush they'll seriously consider supporting him. I mean, he's left on the issues so they can't have a beef against him on that.
Where is your proof of that? I can see why some are supporting his candidacy, but I see nothing that says the entire Democratic party is relying on Clark to beat Bush.
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Who do you currently like then? Consider the 9, Gore, Hillary, Clark and Bush?
I don't have a favorite, mostly because I just don't know much about any of them. It certainly isn't Bush, but I'm not going to blindly pick someone just because I don't like the current President. That's a big problem in California right now with the recall of the governor--thousands of people here don't care who they vote for, just that Gray Davis gets recalled.
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---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
Originally posted by Chaplin
Where is your proof of that? I can see why some are supporting his candidacy, but I see nothing that says the entire Democratic party is relying on Clark to beat Bush.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
I said that if it looks like he's their best bet to beat Bush, they'll gravitate to him.
I also think this is pretty common sensical and common practice among all political parties.
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Fell deeds awake... Now for Wrath... Now for Ruin... and the Red Dawn...
Originally posted by Dback Jon Still a heck of a lot closer to the action than W, who was off protecting the skies of Texas from ??
No doubt, just didn't want anyone getting an image of Gore out in some jungle in a firefight with the VC.
As the article (from my link) said - people back then (if they didn't run off to Canada or go to Russia to protest...) did one of two things a lot...sign up with the military and ask for a certain type of duty (like journalism/photography) or sign up for the Guard (and likely remain stateside the entire time).
Both Gore and Bush appear to have been given preferential treatment during their "time of service." That is nothing new when dealing with the children of wealthy politicians.
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"If Chuck is Solo, Larkin is his Fett!" - Morgan
Both Gore and Bush appear to have been given preferential treatment during their "time of service." That is nothing new when dealing with the children of wealthy politicians.
John Fogarty could have been talking about either when he wrote: "Fortunate Son"
Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
oh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no,
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman come to the door,
Lord, the house look a like a rummage sale, yes,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no.
Yeh, some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more, yoh,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no military son,
It iain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,
I won't vote for him based on his affiliation with the KLA in Kosovo. Also, I am dead set against Affirmative Action it identifies the problem but is completely against the whole "all men are equal" philosophy.
Originally posted by CardinalMike Also, I am dead set against Affirmative Action it identifies the problem but is completely against the whole "all men are equal" philosophy.
Would the alternative be to identify the problem but not to do anything about it?
I've never understood how so many people can be so strongly against Affirmative Action. Things aren't equal now. Something has to be done to level the field until the mindset of the average person is changed. This might just be a southern problem, but your average white person, whether they realize it or not, is somewhat racist and will favor the white person nine times out of ten.
As for Gen. Clark, I would guess he is my favorite if I had to pick now....There is something about Dean that I dont like, not exactly sure what. As for the others....no one really sticks out....maybe Gephardt or Graham, but I see no chance of them defeating Bush.
If I could have anyone, It would probably be Joe Biden, but there doesn't appear to be any chance of that happening this time around.
Originally posted by choginals Would the alternative be to identify the problem but not to do anything about it?
I've never understood how so many people can be so strongly against Affirmative Action. Things aren't equal now. Something has to be done to level the field until the mindset of the average person is changed. This might just be a southern problem, but your average white person, whether they realize it or not, is somewhat racist and will favor the white person nine times out of ten.
The problem, to me, is that Affirmative Action reaffirms that off-white people are inferior. I am mexican, and I don't believe I am inferior to anyone because of my race.
I don't recall saying that I wouldn't do anything about it I just stated that I feel that AA is not the correct solution for the problem. I believe the root of the problem is culture and education. Specifically Black culture which idolizes ignorance and anti-social behaviour. To combat this I would heavily increase police patrols in high crime residential areas. Revamp those schools providing higher security, better resources and teachers, as well as instituting state provided school uniforms. Obviously money doesn't grow on trees so I would scale back welfare using the savings to pay for something with more of a return on our nation's future.
To be honest in today's America there isn't any reason you can't be successful if you put your mind to it. I just feel that acknowledging someone as inferior based on nothing but skin color is wrong and detrimental to our nation's future. If you want to reform AA to ignore race, gender and sexual orientation and only use economic situation, composite school scores etc for college entrance I would agree with that. However I am dead set against it being used in the work place. All it does is continue to drive us as Americans apart.
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Originally posted by choginals This might just be a southern problem, but your average white person, whether they realize it or not, is somewhat racist and will favor the white person nine times out of ten.
Either provide scientific studies to back up the figures you stated(90% of whites favor other whites) or make sure you imply that is your opinion. At any rate I'm willing to bet that black people favor other black people and same with chinese, mexicans, russians, french etc. That is just common sense imo. Does that actively translate into discrimination in the work place? Only times I have seen it, its been directed at whites. While I understand it happens to everyone I don't believe that its some outrageous problem like it was 40 years ago when AA was actually needed. I have no problems getting a job, even in the IT industry, without having to play the race card. In case you were wondering for race I select other and write in American.
Originally posted by CardinalMike The problem, to me, is that Affirmative Action reaffirms that off-white people are inferior. I am mexican, and I don't believe I am inferior to anyone because of my race.
I dont think that AA implies that minorities are inferior, but in my opinion, far too often white people DO believe that they are.
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Originally posted by CardinalMike I don't recall saying that I wouldn't do anything about it I just stated that I feel that AA is not the correct solution for the problem. I believe the root of the problem is culture and education. Specifically Black culture which idolizes ignorance and anti-social behaviour. To combat this I would heavily increase police patrols in high crime residential areas. Revamp those schools providing higher security, better resources and teachers, as well as instituting state provided school uniforms. Obviously money doesn't grow on trees so I would scale back welfare using the savings to pay for something with more of a return on our nation's future.
To be honest in today's America there isn't any reason you can't be successful if you put your mind to it. I just feel that acknowledging someone as inferior based on nothing but skin color is wrong and detrimental to our nation's future. If you want to reform AA to ignore race, gender and sexual orientation and only use economic situation, composite school scores etc for college entrance I would agree with that. However I am dead set against it being used in the work place. All it does is continue to drive us as Americans apart.
While much of what you say is true(the root of the problem is culture and education....Revamp those schools...) If you start with changing the ways the schools are run and do nothing else, what happens if the new policies fail? Do you tell this generation currently in school "too bad, we messed up. Maybe we will get things right for when your kids are in school."? Or do we use AA until we are at least close to a level playing field?
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Originally posted by CardinalMike Either provide scientific studies to back up the figures you stated(90% of whites favor other whites) or make sure you imply that is your opinion. At any rate I'm willing to bet that black people favor other black people and same with chinese, mexicans, russians, french etc. That is just common sense imo. Does that actively translate into discrimination in the work place? Only times I have seen it, its been directed at whites.
I apologize, that was just my opinion, based on no scientific studies.
And yes, people of a race will likely favor others of the same race. And yes, I do think that is applied in the work place. While I don't have an extensive work history(I am only 24) I have seen several racist in positions of power that I would be willing to bet that they wouldnt be afraid to hire/fire based on race, sex, sexual preference, etc.
To be completely honest, I am not well versed on all of the ways AA is used. I have no doubt that it could be altered a bit to improve it. But I think it would be a big blow to the march toward racial equality in this country if it were removed all together.
I was very pleased to see that you are for the uses in college entrance. That has to be the one issue that I believe the strongest in.
Originally posted by choginals Would the alternative be to identify the problem but not to do anything about it?
I've never understood how so many people can be so strongly against Affirmative Action. Things aren't equal now. Something has to be done to level the field until the mindset of the average person is changed. This might just be a southern problem, but your average white person, whether they realize it or not, is somewhat racist and will favor the white person nine times out of ten.
As for Gen. Clark, I would guess he is my favorite if I had to pick now....There is something about Dean that I dont like, not exactly sure what. As for the others....no one really sticks out....maybe Gephardt or Graham, but I see no chance of them defeating Bush.
If I could have anyone, It would probably be Joe Biden, but there doesn't appear to be any chance of that happening this time around.
This is rediculous. So the average black,mexican,arabic person etc....... arent somewhat prejudice because they will prefer there own race 9 out of 10 times? Or is it only racist when a white person does it? Your thought on that perplexes me?
I am white and I am not prejudice PERIOD! I am against affirmative action because I have personally witnessed how it can make prductivity in the work place go right down the tubes. By putting unqualified people in positions that they have no business being in based on race alone. Rather than qualifications as it should be!
In work, business, and anything in general the most qualified person should be hired regardless of color. PERIOD!
So why should anybody be forced to hire in a manner that makes sure they have an equal number of latinos to whites or african americans to whites over just hiring the most qualified when in the long run it is going to ruin the efficiancy of the work place?
If I have 10 applicants for one position and I have a white person who is WAY more qualified and scored higher on the test for the position your saying that it is good if I employ the person who isnt going to be able to do the job as well and is not qualified just because it is a latino female? Thats just plain stupid and makes zero sense from any standpoint. Its not good for the govt entity that hired the person and its not good for the many qualified people that are going to have to pick up this persons slack in the work place.
Hey if a black person or latino etc..... is more qualified then by all means hire them I WOULD! But if they arent they should not be hired based on the color of there skin. Its wrong and only promotes racism as far as Im concerned!
Its like having a postion open for Human Resource manager in a county entity that is required to use affirmative action as a hiring tool. So they hire the underqualified minority to fill the position. This guy attained his status without the proper qualifications but was the only minority who applied. Now that same section isnt running near a smoothly as it has or should becaseu you ahve an underqualified person running that section, instead of someone who should have been hired based on there qualifications. Now we also notice an even sharper increase in minority hirings since this guy was hired. Do you think hes using affirmative action? Or is he using his racial preferance like you stated whites do 9 out of 10 times? So now should the same rules of affirmative action be applied towards whites who apply from here on out just to keep the numbers good?
Affirmative action will not fix problems it only creates them!
Last edited by Shane H; September 20th, 2003 at 03:34 AM.
Affirmative Action is just a PC way to say racism. Plain and simple. Why is it that white people are constantly accused of racism, but yet that word doesn't exist for others?
It boggles my mind that Affirmative Action could have so many supporters. Even for the minorities chosen for the program, doesn't that demean what they stand for?
__________________
---------------------------------------------------- "I don't flop. I don't complain. I beat you." - Shaquille O'Neal
I think you guys are looking at it wrong. AA doesnt imply inferiority of minorities, it acknowledges that they have historically been treated as such.
Im not going to argue its validity or not. I'm a white guy. I dont know. But I DO KNOW that its never kept me from getting into school, or getting a job, or applying for a loan or whatever.
But calling it racism is extreme and taking the conciliatory approach to it by saying it infers that minorities are indeed inferior is incorrect in my opinion.
Sure there are problems with the system, like there is any government program designed to help people in need. But I think you guys are a bit off base in your blanket condemnation of it.
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