Rivercard

That's a reactionary canary. There is no right being taken away.

__________________
Question Authority

LVG

Disagree. The right to own firearms means that you have to have access to three distinct components to completely fulfill that right:

1. You must be able to own a firearm;
2. You must be able to own ammunition for that firearm;
3. You must be able to use that firearm.

Removal of any of these three components means that the right itself is jeopardized. What good is a pile of bullets without a gun to fire them?

What good is a gun without bullets?

What good is a firearm if you cannot practice with it?

A lack of lead bullets will directly undermine parts 2 & 3.

__________________
RISE UP DARK SIDE

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

Chaz

The right to own and use firearms is the right to self defense.

If you make it too expensive it means only rich people have the ability to exercise that right effectively.

More expensive bullets also means less practice for those that carry them for defense.

ajcardfan

I heard that argument many times about smoking and I'm just fine with what's happened with that "right" in the last decade.

__________________
We live in a world which is full of misery and ignorance, and the plain duty of each and all of us is to try to make the little corner he can influence somewhat less miserable and somewhat less ignorant than it was before he entered it.

T.H. Huxley

LVG

You have the right to keep and bear tobacco!



Whoever said smoking was a right is an idiot. Nowhere in the Constitution, state or federal (well, maybe Virginia), does it say you have a right to smoke. Personal choice - yes. Right guaranteed under the Constitution - no.

__________________
RISE UP DARK SIDE

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

Beaver

When I worked for Nosler a couple years ago, we were preparing for this because of the CALI ban. They have a couple lead free lines in production now.

__________________
You can't climb the ladder of success with your hands in your pockets.

conraddobler

shall not be infringed.... hmmm I wonder if messing with affordable ammunition is infringing, well gosh in my opinion it is and well they said shall not be infringed, right there, they even bothered to make it 2nd right after free speech.

People need to listen to what you said, spliltting up the herd and bickering is what some people would love us all to do instead of jealously guarding EVERYONE'S rights.

You know I think gay people have a right to be treated equally and IMO the eequal protection clause does apply to them.

So when I make that reasonable arguement I expect reasonable people to err on the side of protecting others rights so when they go after rights I care about it pisses me off to no end.

__________________
When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity. John F. Kennedy

LVG

Just some snippets from this article:

http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/epa-...an-led-bullets

Like I said - it's an attempt to make a back door ban.

__________________
RISE UP DARK SIDE

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

DWKB

Maybe, maybe not.

Of course, since the vast majority of ammo is made from lead, if there was an immediate ban on lead ammo there would be a spike in product costs, but once the ammo manufacturers switched over their production the shortage would go away.

My guess is that any actual ruling would grandfather in lead ammo already produced and just require than new ammo be made of different materials after some arbitrary date.

I still stand by the opinion that this will never go anywhere, the EPA puts out petitions for comment on things they have no interest in implementing, not on things they are actually considering. They just implement those. All it does is gin up the "Obama wants our guns" crowd, which I did not subscribe you to LVG.

__________________
"[Rock Chalk Jayhawk] is the greatest college cheer ever devised" --Teddy Roosevelt

Louis

I'd assume that any government organization has to review any petition.

Hell, the courts are still dealing with Orly Taitz and the birther bull****.

What is the likelihood that the EPA adopts this? And DWKB says, that is probably the course of action assuming the petition is accepted and the EPA takes action.

Prices at Cabela's for lead-free bullets seems reasonable to me. I've paid similar prices for lead based bullets when I go hunting every year.

Which leads me further to comment one of the underlying reasons for the petition and that is the dead animals left out in the fields. That is a huge problem. In my area of the country we constantly see dead game. It can be for a variety of reasons but no doubt scavenger type animals are picking at these guys and running the risk of becoming poisoned.

I found an interesting report from the AZ Game and Fish from 2006. I've only read snippets but thought it relevant

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/documents/A...-23-06_000.pdf

LVG

I can see that if there is a long enough lead time between the ruling and when the regulation goes into effect. However, this very story (now on Drudge) will cause another shortage of ammo. People who thought the "danger" had passed will now go back out and purchase anything lying around.

Supply and demand.

The issue with the EPA is that they typically don't give (at least, in my experience) a very long time between the ruling and enforcement. In my experience, the EPA will shut off sales of lead ammo by a certain date, and anything left over will have to be properly disposed of by the manufacturer as hazardous materials.

Last year, in June, the EPA came out with a ruling that they were going to no longer allow what's called an R-22 condenser (for your home A/C) to be used. You had to install the old R-22s by no later than Dec 31 2009. That's install in place (actually welding the lines to the unit), not purchase. As a result, even though I purchased all of my R-22s for all of my buildings (995 units total), I had to have them installed.

This led to an acceleration of my building schedules. I was able to use them all with the exception of 156 - which I had to then throw away and pay for a 410 model and install that, instead.

The market will eventually work itself out, I believe, unless I drastically overestimate the manufacturing capability of non-lead based bullets. The question is - how long will it take to work itself out? A year, two, three? Remember, during that time, priority will go to the military and police services. I wouldn't be surprised if I couldn't find N-LB on the shelf for a year or two after the ban comes into effect.

The EPA may very well not take any action. I find it a bit surprising that they could have rejected this petition out of hand by saying that under law, they cannot regulate bullets, but they put the petition up for public comment and appear to issue a ruling Nov. 1.

I'm not of the "Obama wants our guns" crowd. I think that he has it on his radar, but doesn't want to do anything about it until after this mid-term, at least. Any regulation he does propose will probably have to do with bringing back the assault weapons ban, not an all out attempt to ban every firearm in the US.

However, just because Obama doesn't want to do that doesn't mean that there are not other organizations that desire to completely ban firearms. If you go back and look at some gun control groups, their leaders advocate outright banning of firearms. I believe that this is such an attempt - not by Obama or the administration, or Democrats, but by an anti-gun group. The EPA is simply their chosen mechanism at this time.

__________________
RISE UP DARK SIDE

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

Southpaw

Stockpile lead and load your own.

No wonder there has been a run on ammo at gun shows the last few years.
With mid term elections coming up, my guess is this won't float.

__________________
"I read the news today, oh boy"

Louis

The stockpile in my area was due to the "Obama's gonna take yer guns" phenomena. The local gunshop owner was constantly out of the ammo and guns.

PortlandCardFan

I think it is in our best interest to stop using lead but lets not go 'cold turkey'... Let the ammo manufactures get some time to ramp up on other non-toxic ammo. Find a happy medium between the oppositions. Oh wait, this is politics!!! Nevermind...

__________________
All Hell is breakin loose!!!!!

nothing worth having is freely given... it is earned through hard work and sacrifice.

I'm sorry Thomas!!!

conraddobler

They wouldn't be banning lead they'd most likely be banning lead core bullets, which means if you go out shooting them I would assume you'll be violating federal regulations.

So load your own and stockpile away, it would not do any good IMO.

__________________
When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity. John F. Kennedy