How many of these stories will be getting soon?

WaywardFan · March 28th, 2003, 07:11 AM

These are just taken from 'human shields'. Wait until the Iraqi people feel safe enough to speak to the world's media.

Disillusioned Human Shields
Reed Irvine
Friday, March 28, 2003
At the Army’s daily briefing in Qatar on March 26, a reporter asked Gen. Vincent Brooks what he had to say to the human shields who have gone to Iraq to risk their lives to stop the war. The general missed a great opportunity to tell what two of these "human shields" had recently said about what they learned in Baghdad that caused them to abandon their plans to risk their lives trying to protect innocent Iraqi civilians.

In a dispatch from Amman, Jordan, distributed by UPI and published in the Washington Times on March 23, veteran foreign correspondent Arnaud de Borchgrave reported that a group of Americans who had joined a delegation of Japanese "human shields" in Iraq had changed their minds and fled the country with 14 hours of videotaped interviews with Iraqis who hoped the Coalition forces would be their liberators.

The spokesman for the group, the Rev. Kenneth Joseph, a pastor of the Assyrian Church of the East, an ancient Christian church that has a substantial membership in the United States, told de Borchgrave that his trip to Iraq "had shocked me back to reality."

He said that his talks with Iraqis convinced him that Saddam is "a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so [the torture masters] could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

He told de Borchgrave that some of the Iraqis he had interviewed on camera told him they would commit suicide if the American bombing didn’t start and that they were willing to see their homes destroyed if it would free them from Saddam’s bloody tyranny.

The Rev. Joseph and his group were not the only would-be human shields who changed their minds after hearing what Iraqi civilians had to say about Saddam. Daniel Pepper, a 23-year-old Jewish American living in London who had traveled in the Middle East as a student and a photographer for Newsweek, went to Iraq on Jan. 25 with a group that intended to serve as human shields to call attention to the anti-war movement. He wrote about his experience in the London Telegraph on March 23.

He said, "The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn’t say that I was exactly pro-war. No, I am ambivalent, but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed. I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad – a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, ‘Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good.’ He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

"He slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam’s regime. Until then I had only heard the president spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq’s oil money went into Saddam’s pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family. It scared the hell out of me. ... I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. ... I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others."

Safely over the border, they asked the driver "what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment." He surprised them, saying: "The Americans don’t want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb the government and Saddam’s palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam. All Iraqi people want this war."

He was convinced that Saddam had paid them to come to Iraq. Pepper concluded his article saying, "Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops people from exercising that freedom."

Extraordinary indeed.

Reed Irvine is chairman of Accuracy in Media.

WaywardFan · March 28th, 2003, 07:14 AM

Here's another one:

'I Was Wrong'
Ken Joseph Jr.

Friday, March 28, 2003

AMMAN, Jordan – I was wrong. I had opposed the war on Iraq in my radio program, on television and in my regular columns, and I participated in demonstrations against it in Japan. But a visit to relatives in Baghdad radically changed my mind.

I am an Assyrian Christian, born and raised in Japan, where my father had moved after World War II to help rebuild the country. He was a Protestant minister, and so am I.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age: how my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 and settled finally in Chicago.

There are about 6 million Assyrians now, about 2.5 million in Iraq and the rest scattered across the world. Without a country and rights even in our native land, it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian nation will one day be restored.

A few weeks ago, I traveled to Iraq with supplies for our church and family. This was my first visit ever to the land of my forefathers. The first order of business was to attend church. During a simple meal for peace activists after the service, an older man sounded me out carefully.

Iraqi: 'We Want the War'

Finally he felt free to talk: "There is something you should know - we didn't want to be here tonight. When the priest asked us to gather for a peace service, we said we didn't want to come because we don't want peace. We want the war to come."

"What in the world are you talking about?" I blurted.

Thus began a strange odyssey that shattered my convictions. At the same time, it gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

Because of my invitation as a "religious person" and family connections, I was spared the government snoops who ordinarily tail foreigners 24 hours a day.

This allowed me to see and hear amazing things as I stayed in the homes of several relatives. The head of our tribe urged me not to remain with my people during its time of trial but instead go out and tell the world about the nightmare ordinary Iraqis are going through.

'We Live Like Animals'

I was to tell the world about the terror on the faces of my family when a stranger knocked at the door. "Look at our lives!" they said. "We live like animals: no food, no car, no telephone, no job, and, most of all, no hope."

That's why they wanted this war.

"You cannot imagine what it is to live like this for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine lest we would lose our minds."

But I realized in every household that someone had already lost his or her mind; in other societies such a person would be in a mental hospital. I also realized that there wasn't a household that did not mourn at least one family member who had become a victim of this police state.

I wept with relatives whose son just screamed all day long. I cried with a relative who had lost his wife. Yet another left home every day for a "job" where he had nothing to do. Still another had lost a son to war and a husband to alcoholism.

As I observed the slow death of a people without hope, Saddam Hussein seemed omnipresent. There were his statues; posters showed him with his hand outstretched or firing his rifle, or wearing an Arab headdress. These images seemed to be on every wall, in the middle of the road, in homes.

"Everything will be all right when the war is over," people told me. "No matter how bad it is, we will not all die. Twelve years ago, it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war, and we want it now."

The People Don't Want the U.N.

When I told members of my family that some sort of compromise with Iraq was being worked out at the United Nations, they reacted not with joy but anger: "Only war will get out of our present condition."

This reminded me of the stories I heard from older Japanese who had welcomed the sight of American B-29 bombers in the skies over their country as a sign that the war was coming to an end. True, these planes brought destruction, but also hope.

'I Felt Terrible About Having Demonstrated Against the War'

I felt terrible about having demonstrated against the war without bothering to ask what the Iraqis wanted. Tears streamed down my face as I lay in my bed in a tiny Baghdad house crowded in with 10 other people of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted, all without hope. I thought, "How dare I claim to speak for people I had not even asked what they wanted?"

Then I began a strange journey to let the world know of the true situation in Iraq, just as my tribe had begged me to. With great risk to myself and those who had told their stories and allowed my camera into their homes, I videotaped their plight.

But would I get that tape out of the country?

To make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of the oppressed Assyrian minority, I spoke to dozens of other people, all terrified. Over and over they told me, "We would be killed for speaking like this." Yet they did speak, though only in private homes or when other Iraqis had assured them that no government minder was watching over me.

I spoke with a former army member, with someone working for the police, with taxi drivers, store owners, mothers and government officials. All had the same message: "Please bring on the war. We may lose our lives, but for our children's sake, please, please end our misery."

'Soldiers Hated Their Work'

On my last day in Baghdad, I saw soldiers putting up sandbags. By their body language, these men made it clear that they dared not speak but hated their work; they were unmistakably on the side of the common people.

I wondered how my relatives felt about the United States and Britain. Their feelings were mixed. They have no love for the allies -- but they trust them.

"We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people," I was told. "What we are afraid of is Saddam and the Baath Party will do when the war begins."

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place - the border, where crying members of my family sent me off.

The taxi fares from Baghdad to Amman had risen within one day from $100 to $300, to $500 and then to $1,000 by nightfall.

My driver looked on anxiously as a border guard patted me down. He found my videotapes, and I thought: It's all over!

For once I experienced what my relatives were going through 365 days a year - sheer terror. Quietly, the officer laid the tapes on a desk, one by one. Then he looked at me - was it with sadness or with anger? Who knows?

He clinically shook his head and without a word handed all the tapes back to me. He didn't have to say anything. He spoke the only language left to these imprisoned Iraqis, the silent language of human kindness.

"Please take these tapes and show them to the world," was his silent message. "Please help us ... and hurry!" The Rev. Ken Joseph Jr. lives in Tokyo and directs Assyrianchristians.com.

schutd · March 28th, 2003, 08:11 AM

Where are these stories coming from?

Dback Jon · March 28th, 2003, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by schutd
Where are these stories coming from?

Newsmax.com, the Right Wing National Enquirer.

This story, however, I have seen in more reputable outlets as well.

WaywardFan · March 28th, 2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dback Jon
Newsmax.com, the Right Wing National Enquirer.

This story, however, I have seen in more reputable outlets as well.

The Right Wing National Enquirer? Oh, please.

Despite your attempt to delegitmize the site, it produces accurate stories. Show me one story on that site that does not contain accurate information. Is there conservative commentary in some of the reports? Sure. Are the stories presented there because the main stream media ignores them? Absolutely. Yet, show me an inaccurate story. Show me where the quotes are made up. Show me where the sources they refer to (mostly other 'reputable' outlets) are untrustworthy.

I wanted to post these articles so people here could see them and be heartened by what we're doing. I wanted to show that Iraqi's want us there and we're there for the right reasons. Regardless of WHERE the articles came from, they are nonpolitical. The only thing you can do with it is to take a political slant and once again treat it with disdain.

schutd · March 28th, 2003, 10:57 AM

For the record, Wayward, I just wanted to know. Id love for that kind of thing to be going on, and it would indeed be heartening.

But theres so many of those "A letter home from a marine" type stories floating around that have been debunked a million times, I wouldnt put it past someone fabricating that kind of stuff to make sure public support stays in favor of the war, now that the generally underinformed public is realizing that we are actually in a REAL war and not what CHeney and other media and government people had been fouting before this started.

I hope thats not the case, but the cynic in me cant help but question this kind of stuff. Talk about "Fog of War"... trying to make heads and tails of all the propaganda is dizzying.

Thanks for letting me know where you got em though. there was no political slant to my question at all.

WaywardFan · March 28th, 2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by schutd
For the record, Wayward, I just wanted to know. Id love for that kind of thing to be going on, and it would indeed be heartening.

I know. I got that from you. You asked the same exact question on another thread (ironically, what I posted came from the same site) some time ago. I have no problem with people wanting to find things out. Hell, I’ve asked for information all the time on this board, especially on the sports front.

By the way, you must really be in the belly of the beast if you root for AZ teams (especially the D-Backs).

Quote:

But theres so many of those "A letter home from a marine" type stories floating around that have been debunked a million times, I wouldnt put it past someone fabricating that kind of stuff to make sure public support stays in favor of the war, now that the generally underinformed public is realizing that we are actually in a REAL war and not what CHeney and other media and government people had been fouting before this started.

That’s pretty cynical, but I can’t say I don’t understand. I’m sure I’m just as cynical the other way.
However, you can be calm in the knowledge that DBackJon has officially sanctioned it as a legit story because he found it on a reputable site. <Whew> Dodged a bullet on that one.

As to your comment on Cheney, I’m interested. From what I saw, he wasn’t really in the forefront regarding this war.

Quote:

I hope thats not the case, but the cynic in me cant help but question this kind of stuff. Talk about "Fog of War"... trying to make heads and tails of all the propaganda is dizzying.

Agreed, but if its propaganda I’m glad we’re doing something to combat the flood of anti-American propaganda coming from Iraq and Al Jazeera.

Quote:

Thanks for letting me know where you got em though. there was no political slant to my question at all.

I know. You might want to check the site out once. I know it’s probably not your political cup o’ tea, but I think it is quite informative.

schutd · March 28th, 2003, 12:37 PM

Oh CHeney was no big deal, I wasnt deriding him or anything, he just mad a comment before the ar started on one of the SUnday meetings on how he expected us to roll into Iraq and be met with little to no resistance... That kind of stuff.

WaywardFan · March 28th, 2003, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schutd
Oh CHeney was no big deal, I wasnt deriding him or anything, he just mad a comment before the ar started on one of the SUnday meetings on how he expected us to roll into Iraq and be met with little to no resistance... That kind of stuff.

Ah. Okay.

Well, if the UN hadn't delayed us, we might've been able to.

schutd · March 28th, 2003, 12:46 PM

You might be right.

My overall point was that Americans have been hyped up by many sources (most guilty: the media) into believeing that this war was going to be like in 91; a 2 week affair where we go in, kick ass, no one dies, we find the smoking gun, the world apologizes to us, and everyone goes home happy.

I really believe the majority of Americans probably thought like that. It's obviously not going to happen that way, and in classic media style, they are no longer touting our capabilities and our accomplishments, but are questioning everyone in the Pentagon why it didnt unfold as such, even though they were the ones who propagated such stories to begin with.

Point is, the public probably couls use a dose of cheer right now, and I dont put it beyond the pwoers that be to provide some.

justAndy · March 28th, 2003, 02:14 PM

when Saddam was "Our" friend, Uncle Ron took him off the terror list that Jimmy Carter had put him on, that Saddam was a butcher.
back then, our government knew these things, but they didn't care. Don't you people get it? It's just like Orwell's "1984" -one day so and so is our great ally, then the next, he is the devil incarnate. Where is America's memory????
sincerely, concerned American citizen Andikrist.

schutd · March 28th, 2003, 03:05 PM

Hate to say it AndiKrist, as I always appreciate a dissenter, and your facts arent untrue, but you better add "naive" to "concerned American citizen"

RedStorm · March 29th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by andikrist
when Saddam was "Our" friend, Uncle Ron took him off the terror list that Jimmy Carter had put him on, that Saddam was a butcher.
back then, our government knew these things, but they didn't care. Don't you people get it? It's just like Orwell's "1984" -one day so and so is our great ally, then the next, he is the devil incarnate. Where is America's memory????
sincerely, concerned American citizen Andikrist.

andi...you are right. I guess we should just turn our heads now and look the other way. Maybe we should just pull out and let Saddam continue his killing and torture. We should just sit and wait for the next terrorist attack to happen here in our own country. Andi...you are right.

If you are concerned then how would you deal with this issue? Talk? Another round of diplomacy in the UN?

It is easier to sit back and be critical. It is easy to maintain the status quo.

I heard this from somewhere recently in regards to those countries that are opposing this war. "If you see a criminal in the street and choose to not do anything, do not be critical if one of your neighbors comes out of his house and takes on the criminal."

If you want to hide your head in the sand then go ahead. I want peace. Everyone wants peace. However, sometimes that peace comes at the end of a war.

How many of these stories will be getting soon?

i knew back in the 80's...

Re: i knew back in the 80's...