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Old April 7th, 2003, 06:41 AM   #1
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Appears we have found what we are looking for!!!!


US Forces have found 20 Medium range missiles filled with the VERY deadly Sarin and Muster gas. The Missiles were loaded and ready to fire!

This is your smoking gun folks hopefully Skorp, Schut, CB, Bob, this will all make you happy and confident that this was absolutely the right thing to do now!

MSNBC is also reporting this find it was supposedly hidden inside of a girls school and they were tipped off by a former Iraqi Special Forces soldier!

http://www.msnbc.com/news/895392.asp
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Last edited by Shane; April 7th, 2003 at 06:48 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:15 AM   #2
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I'm sorry, Shane, I didn't see your thread when I posted this . . .

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/...&threadid=8308
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:18 AM   #3
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For the record, regardless of whether or not we find WMD, we needed to rid the world of Saddam Hussein's regime. It would have been nice to do it with UN backing, but that was obviously not going to happen. Additionally, the purported purpose of this war, as stated by our governemtn was to disarm Saddam Hussein of all WMD. So it is crucial that we find some, in order to justify our incursion into their country. If we don't. Im still happy about the removal of Saddam, but we will have a PR nightmare with the rest of the world if we dont.

As for this report, I'll wait and see the test results. Sarin is used in pesticides, so we'd need to se final results before we could declare this a WMD site for sure.

And nowhere in that article did it say anything about missles loaded with these agents and ready to fire. Did it used to? And they changed the story since you posted the link?
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:28 AM   #4
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I think this is a different version of the same story, and I think they did say there were 'ready to fire'.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Apr7.html
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:33 AM   #5
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Originally posted by schutd
For the record, regardless of whether or not we find WMD, we needed to rid the world of Saddam Hussein's regime. It would have been nice to do it with UN backing, but that was obviously not going to happen.

The UN should be disbanded and the building used as a homeless shelter. More good could be done then.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:37 AM   #6
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Originally posted by Chaplin
The UN should be disbanded and the building used as a homeless shelter. More good could be done then.

I was thinking of something more capitalist (especially after losing the WTC), but I can live with that. And you're right, it would cause more good than its present usage.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:38 AM   #7
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Originally posted by WaywardFan
I think this is a different version of the same story, and I think they did say there were 'ready to fire'.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Apr7.html
Thanks for the link, Wayward. That gun is really smoking now. I hope the reports of this arent pre-mature. I could use some comfort right now when I think of all the death occuring over there.

Solid justification for this war backed by physical evidence, while it doesnt bring back our lost troops sure helps me personally deal with the loss, as we now have the proof that our action was of moral imperative.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:42 AM   #8
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Oh and also, the "sick bastard" part of me really hopes this is true so we can stick our foot up Chirac's ass. ANd then Putin's, and then Syria's. Germany, while opposed to the war, has been far less hostiel about it. They seem more humanitarian in nature with their objections. France and Russia are so obviously trying to end this war without regime change. Gee, I wonder if they have any business on the line with Saddam. Sheesh.

If the UN doesnt do a full investigation into France and Russia's dealings with Saddam, outside of the sactions emposed by the UN, then you guys are right. Disband the mofo and find a better way to run the world.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by schutd
Thanks for the link, Wayward. That gun is really smoking now. I hope the reports of this arent pre-mature. I could use some comfort right now when I think of all the death occuring over there.

Solid justification for this war backed by physical evidence, while it doesnt bring back our lost troops sure helps me personally deal with the loss, as we now have the proof that our action was of moral imperative.
Well said.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:47 AM   #10
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Originally posted by schutd
Oh and also, the "sick bastard" part of me really hopes this is true so we can stick our foot up Chirac's ass. ANd then Putin's, and then Syria's. Germany, while opposed to the war, has been far less hostiel about it. They seem more humanitarian in nature with their objections. France and Russia are so obviously trying to end this war without regime change. Gee, I wonder if they have any business on the line with Saddam. Sheesh.
Schutd, are you trying to be facetious with that last sentence? Because if you aren’t, I’d be happy to share some financial information from the so-called Axis of Weasel countries. However, I figure you’ve already found such information.

I would LOVE to shove physical evidence to all of them, the UN and the anti-war types and see what they say now.

Quote:
If the UN doesnt do a full investigation into France and Russia's dealings with Saddam, outside of the sactions emposed by the UN, then you guys are right. Disband the mofo and find a better way to run the world.
I doubt they would do such a thing. Unfortunately, I’m also doubting the U.S. would do it either. There is going to be a LOT of pressure put on to patch things up. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but what can we do?

I’ve been emailing a friend of mine in Germany, and we’ve been having a splendid discussion on this whole matter. It’s great to share our viewpoints, both personal and from a country-wide standpoint. It is a very intriguing learning experience.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 07:54 AM   #11
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Originally posted by WaywardFan
Schutd, are you trying to be facetious with that last sentence? Because if you aren’t, I’d be happy to share some financial information from the so-called Axis of Weasel countries. However, I figure you’ve already found such information.

I would LOVE to shove physical evidence to all of them, the UN and the anti-war types and see what they say now.

Oh I havent seen the figures, so a link would be cool, but theres no doubt in my mind that France and Russia have billions of dollars on the line with this war. There's no other logical justification for their dogged pursuits of not only stopping this war through the UN but by then attempting to broker a cease fire that leaves Saddam in charge. Pathetic. Sure, hook me up with a link.


Also, Im not interested in shoving this find down the throats of American war protestors. Whether or not you feel they know the issues, and what they are truly protesting against, their protest is a show of ideals that is at its core simply anti-war. I find that stance extremely naive, but I also find it commendable. And I think they are well within their rights to express their opionions about the war wherever they want. I feel A LOT more justified in now in debunking their beliefs, now that we've found or justification for this war, but I dont have any ill will towards them and in now way would shove their pacifistic leanings back in their faces. That won't change any minds. So there's no need for it.

I cant wait until the Iraqi Information minister is in custody. I really need to know if Baghdadians believe his tirades. How could they?
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Old April 7th, 2003, 08:04 AM   #12
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Originally posted by schutd

I cant wait until the Iraqi Information minister is in custody. I really need to know if Baghdadians believe his tirades. How could they?
100% agreed. Man, this guy is like a late night talk show host and his monologues are broadcast to the world! Americans committing suicide from the walls of Baghdad... Shyeah, what a complete moron!
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Old April 7th, 2003, 08:11 AM   #13
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Originally posted by schutd
Oh I havent seen the figures, so a link would be cool, but theres no doubt in my mind that France and Russia have billions of dollars on the line with this war. There's no other logical justification for their dogged pursuits of not only stopping this war through the UN but by then attempting to broker a cease fire that leaves Saddam in charge. Pathetic. Sure, hook me up with a link.
Okay, I go to my Favorites for the link. The title appears on the top but there is no detail. I'll check the link a little later. If worse comes to worse, I'll type out the information later. I printed it out and it's at home.

As far as one more logical justification, I think one is they don't want us to see evidence that they've been supplying Iraq with weapons. Hell, watching MSNBC this weekend, I saw a report of a weapons bunker. 120 rooms of ammo. There were stacks of this one type of shell that had an adaptor for filling the shell with liquid or gaseous payload. The shell had Cyrillic on it. Now, it could be really old, but what if it isn't?


Quote:
Also, Im not interested in shoving this find down the throats of American war protestors. Whether or not you feel they know the issues, and what they are truly protesting against, their protest is a show of ideals that is at its core simply anti-war. I find that stance extremely naive, but I also find it commendable. And I think they are well within their rights to express their opionions about the war wherever they want. I feel A LOT more justified in now in debunking their beliefs, now that we've found or justification for this war, but I dont have any ill will towards them and in now way would shove their pacifistic leanings back in their faces. That won't change any minds. So there's no need for it.
Oh, I'm all for shoving it in their faces, mostly because they claimed the war is about everything BUT what its about. Maybe if they see thousands of barrels of chemical weaponry they might start to see another side. Perhaps I'm being harsh, but I'm certain I'm nowhere near as harsh as they've been.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 08:16 AM   #14
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Originally posted by WaywardFan
Okay, I go to my Favorites for the link. The title appears on the top but there is no detail. I'll check the link a little later. If worse comes to worse, I'll type out the information later. I printed it out and it's at home.

As far as one more logical justification, I think one is they don't want us to see evidence that they've been supplying Iraq with weapons. Hell, watching MSNBC this weekend, I saw a report of a weapons bunker. 120 rooms of ammo. There were stacks of this one type of shell that had an adaptor for filling the shell with liquid or gaseous payload. The shell had Cyrillic on it. Now, it could be really old, but what if it isn't?


Oh, I'm all for shoving it in their faces, mostly because they claimed the war is about everything BUT what its about. Maybe if they see thousands of barrels of chemical weaponry they might start to see another side. Perhaps I'm being harsh, but I'm certain I'm nowhere near as harsh as they've been.
Ill wait to see if maybe some DO see another side, before I pass judgement.

Oh and dont go through the trouble of typing it all out. Im sure in the next few months there will be plenty of links to that kind of info. Heh.
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Old April 7th, 2003, 08:30 AM   #15
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Linky


Okay, it worked. It is admitedly a conservative site, but it is very well documented (and its not like a liberal site would do this anyway). I want to say I've posted this before, but I could be wrong. Anyway, here it is:




http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm


Facts on Who Benefits From Keeping Saddam Hussein In Power
by Carrie Satterlee
WebMemo #217


February 28, 2003 - Updated, April 1, 2003 | |



France

France controls over 22.5 percent of Iraq’s imports.[1]

French total trade with Iraq under the oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since 1996, according to the United Nations.[2]

In 2001 France became Iraq’s largest European trading partner. Roughly 60 French companies did an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with Baghdad in 2001 under the U.N. oil-for-food program.[3]

France’s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated extensive oil contracts to develop the Majnoon and Nahr Umar oil fields in southern Iraq. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country’s oil reserves. The two fields purportedly contain an estimated 26 billion barrels of oil.[4] In 2002, the non-war price per barrel of oil was $25. Based on that average these two fields have the potential to provide a gross return near $650 billion.

France’s Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76 million contract to rehabilitate Iraq’s telephone system.[5]
In 2001 French carmaker Renault SA sold $75 million worth of farming equipment to Iraq.[6]

More objections have been lodged against French export contracts with Iraq than any other exporting country under the oil-for-food program, according to a report published by the London Times. In addition French companies have signed contracts with Iraq worth more than $150 million that are suspected of being linked to its military operations.[7]

Some of the goods offered by French companies to Iraq, detailed by UN documents, include refrigerated trucks that can be used as storage facilities and mobile laboratories for biological weapons.
Iraq owes France an estimated $6 billion in foreign debt accrued from arms sales in the 1970s and ‘80s.[8]

From 1981 to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq’s arms imports.[9]


Germany

Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[10]

It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany’s “firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.” It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[11]

During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[12]

In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[13]

Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980’s.[14]

German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein’s Al Fao Supercannon project.[15]

An article in the German daily Tageszeitung reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction.


Russia
Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[16] Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia’s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.[17]

According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.[18]

Russia’s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.[19]

In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian–Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.[20]

In April 2001, Russia’s Zaruezhneft and Tatneft companies received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion. Together the deals were valued at $13.2 million.[21]

A future $40 billion Iraqi–Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[22] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.[23]

Russia’s Gazprom Company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.[24]

The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[25]

Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980–1988 Iran–Iraq war.
Three Russian firms are suspected of selling electronic jamming equipment, antitank missiles and thousands of night-vision goggles to Iraq in violation of U.N. sanctions.[26] Two of the companies identified are Aviaconversiya and KBP Tula.


China

China controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[27]
China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[28]

In recent years, the Chinese Aero-Technology Import–Export Company (CATIC) has been contracted to sell “meteorological satellite” and “surface observation” equipment to Iraq. The U.N. oil-for-food program approved this contract.[29]

CATIC also won approval from the U.N. in July 2000 to sell $2 million worth of fiber optic cables. This and similar contracts approved were disguised as telecommunications gear. These cables can be used for secure data and communications links between national command and control centers and long-range search radar, targeting radar, and missile-launch units, according to U.S. officials. In addition, China National Electric Wire & Cable and China National Technical Import Telecommunications Equipment Company are believed to have sold Iraq $6 million and $15.5 million worth of communications equipment and other unspecified supplies, respectively.[30]

According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18 percent of Iraq’s weapons imports.[31]


United States

The United States remains the largest importer of Iraqi oil under the UN Oil-for-Food program. However, U.S. companies can no longer deal directly with Iraq for its oil imports. U.S. companies are forced to deal with third party vendors as a result of a ban on all American companies imposed by Iraq. In 2002, the U.S. imported $3.5 billion worth of Iraqi oil.[32]

Iraq is the sixth largest supplier of oil to the United States. In 2002, imports from Iraq accounted for only 5 percent of total U.S. oil imports, dropping down from 8.5 percent in 2001. In addition, American oil companies have not signed a contract with Baghdad since 1972.


In 2002, the U.S. exported $31 million worth of goods to Iraq.[33] The exports consisted mostly of agricultural goods and machine parts. U.S. sales to Iraq dropped off after the Gulf War and resumed only on a limited scale in 1996 under the UN Oil-for-Food program.

According to the SIPRI arms transfers database, from 1981 to 2001, the United States was the 11th largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying approximately $200 million of Iraq’s weapons imports. The top three suppliers, from 1981 to 2001, were Russia, China and France respectively.[34]
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