Chris_Sanders

If that is the truth, then they really should have revealed it at the end. Would have been the perfect ending and I think it would have made the entire movie make a LOT more sense.

Chandler Mike

You have a point, it sure would have been a nice way to leave the theatre...heck, I think Nidan has some valid points...the story and pace were weak, I'll give him that.

Like I said though, it's like watching a 5 hour movie, and pausing it after 2.5 hours...of course nothing is going to be revealed yet, there is 2.5 hours to go!

Mike

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FischerKing

I think the fact is that this theory about Zion being a part of the Matrix - just another program and not real - is just that - a theory. For me I was just speculating on it yesterday because that made the most sense to me.

But I still don't think it reveals anything. This movie threw out most of what we thought we knew about the Matrix from the first movie. I think the most that we can do is speculate - but we're not going to know everything fully perhaps until the end of Revolutions (is that synonmous with the reboot theory?).

I wouldn't go as far as saying that anything concrete has been revealed.

Yesterday, Mike, Chapling and I had about a 2 hours discussion or so about the points we agree upon which were:

1. The Oracle is a program and part of the Matrix. She is also the creater of Zion.

2. If Zion was created by the Oracle - then Zion must be a part of the Matrix and a program itself.

3. The Architect is a co-creater with the Oracle and that would make him a program as well.

4. Neo is able to affect the Matrix in a way that none of the other "Awakened" humas can (Morpheus, Trinity, etc) who have been unplugged. That leads to the idea that he draws his power from something independent of the Matrix which then leads me to believe that Neo, in whole or part - probably in part - is the only one independent of the Matrix and that's what he's discovering as we go along the movie.

Thinking about this further - that's probably the reason of the second movie - showing Neo's progression of understanding. He definitely has a better command of what he can do, but at the end we see further realization that he apparently can affect the machines "outside the Matrix" - if that's the reality we've been meant to believe given to us by the first movie.

I was asked yesterday why Neo - if he's not apart of the Matrix - would help to save Zion because it doesn't make sense if Zion is part of the Matrix. After giving some thought to it, I'd respond that since Neo does not fully understand who he is, he cannot fully realize what he is doing and the part he is playing. If he thinks Zion and all that it entails is reality then of course he's going to help defend because he doesn't fully understand.

Just my theories so far, but I do think that there are deeper levels to the Matrix that we've been shown so far. I've even refined my idea on this from yesterday. Even though I've been saying that those like Morhpeus, Trinity, Tank, etc. were programs, I might retract that a bit. They may be manifested in Zion as a program. The Oracle created Zion so Zion cannot be reality. That means those living in Zion - if they are real - are a further representation of that reality (ie. more programs). If that's true, then Morpheus could be real, which could mean that even though they think they are unplugged from the Matrix could mean that in fact they are still plugged in somewhere else.

If what the Oracle told Neo was true - that everything they see, etc. is a program, then it's also plausible that the fields of humans in the tubes was also an abstract manifestation of reality generated by the Oracle to represent what was going on. Unfortunately for them it means that when they unplugged from one part of the Matrix, they were still plugged in somewhere else because that was just an illusion.

Yeah - many levels

Shawn

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WaywardFan

Wow, this thread has really moved considering the movie’s only been out a couple of days.

I thought the movie was quite interesting in many ways, and I’m still absorbing it. I think there were definitely some scenes (most notably some of the more philosophical discussions) that were unnecessary, but I’ve come to believe they are setups for the last movie.

I think Monica is beautiful, but that dress made her ass look horrible.

There is no Tank for a reason. The actor who played him went seriously loopy (or maybe the Brothers did in regards to him). He wanted the Brothers to pay him the same amount of money that the ‘big’ actors got. When they refused, he suggested not getting paid at all, but would settle on a percentage of the gross (something that isn’t done but for the biggest actors). He would go to events of his own volition that the Brothers or the big actors went to and just injected himself into them.

Finally, I think, the brothers told him they don’t want him back and even had to pursue some legal action to keep him away. I got this from web surfing, interestingly from a site that worships this guy. It all seemed very warped.

I think this movie suffers from the ground breaking success of the first movie. That, and the unfair media and spectator build up, hurt the impressions of this movie. Of course the official movie critics aren’t going to like it. They never do for these types of movies (and I don’t mean sci-fi necessarily, I mean movies that are so attractive to the masses but aren’t ‘high art’), most notably the Star Wars franchise. I see many parallels with SW, especially the first trilogy.

I thought the fight scenes were very cool. More than that though, I really appreciated Neo’s demeanor in the Matrix. He has transformed himself into every bit of the hero. He knows he can do whatever, despite the odds. Very cool.

I also liked the interaction between him and Trinity. I found their interplay very real and meaningful. I wish we could’ve seen more of Trinity though.

Morpheus, who’s been relegated to the traditional ‘general’ for the hero he found, got some very meaningful minutes. Gotta love kick ass sword play.

I thought the twins were probably the most disappointing aspect of the movie. I suppose they could be back, but why?

As to the ending, or rather WHERE the ending stopped. I saw many parallels to Empire Strikes Back. They are hurt, they’ve been defeated of sorts, it is a dark time. All illusions have been shattered. They are on the run, a ship picks them up. I don’t have a problem with how the story ended. It doesn’t have to be so spectacularly cliff-hangerish. It is, after all, half of a 5 hour movie. They’ve said as such. In fact, they wanted to release both at the same time but just couldn’t do it.

Now, what’s up with the Matrix and Zion. I really want to watch again and really soak up the conversations (especially with the Architect), but I think I understand what’s going on. Them being in the ‘real world’, as well as Zion, is still the Matrix. It is yet another layer that we couldn’t have thought of before. I thought it was very intriguing that this whole thing has been played out 5 other times. There were many inferences to Neo being better than the rest.

There is also evidence to support this contention. The most obvious is Neo stopping the Squiddies. I remember another one though: Smith leaving the ‘Matrix’ for the ‘real world’.

There is also something different that the Architect saw as a problem (or perhaps ‘the’ problem). Love. It wasn’t a factor before and it is what led Neo to choose the different door. So, in fact, Neo is the One (of Ones).

They kept emphasizing that everyone had a role to play, like a story (which it seems this is, over and over). This would suggest that even the Oracle is on the other side and ‘playing out her part’, as someone else brought up. I wonder if Neo was truly onto her though, based on his reservations.

Makes you wonder what the REAL real world looks like. It also makes you wonder what the REAL history of the Matrix is (did humans really ‘scorch the sky’?). Definitely a lot to digest.

I had hoped for an imagination boost from this movie as I did from the first one. I don’t think that has happened. However, I can live with what I have unexpectedly received. Plots and plot movements, timing on when to reveal plot points, that sort of thing.

EDIT: I forgot something. The whole Smith thing is intriguing, and I will readily admit to not having a clue. However, I am getting the feeling that they are going to somehow have Smith fight on the good-guy's side when all is said and done. Hell, he might not even be an agent, and more closely associated with the One than the Matrix.

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SirChaz

I really enjoyed this movie.

There were definatly some slow spots but considering this is a part 2 of 3 it was understandable.

Mostly the movie has been throughly discussed in this thread.
If you don't like martial arts movies you will be bored with large sections of this movie. The digital rendering reminded me of Blade2 but the transitions were better. I thought most of the choregraphy was well concieved and was state of the art even if the digial effects were obivious. (Blade2 used more dark scenes to hide the rendered aspects if I remember correctly, Reloaded did not have this crutch to lean on in the Smith's v Neo scene).

I really liked the whole "what is the matrix" aspect and going deeper in the making and origins of it.

If you like Kung-fu meets Star Wars go see it.
I give it 4 out of 5.

I rarely go to the movies at all but I may go see it again.

Suns_fan69

I don't think that's a fair excuse. It can be argued that the entire trilogy is one 8 or 9 hour movie but has breaks in it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have proper development in each seperate installment. That's why the original Star Wars trilogy was so good. Each individual movie was done very well in terms of story, with the second by far the best (imho anyhow), but then you take it as a whole and it becomes so much more because it flowed into each other so seamlessly.

I think the main reason that I didn't enjoy Reloaded as much as the first one was because the climax wasn't as clear cut. The first one the primary conflict was Neo vs himself and his struggle to find out if he was 'The One' and it was quite evident that he was.

I can't figure out this one. There's 3 possible climaxes, Neo saving Trinity, His confrontation with the Architect and finding out he wasn't the first 'One', and him finding out that he can stop the machines in 'Real Life'.

This is hurting my brain, i need to take a step back and collect my thoughts...

vince56

I think that's why a lot of people didn't like this movie... it was over their heads. Lots of long words, lots of quick, fast paced heavy dialogue and several climactic points can make it confusing. I just saw it for the first time last night, and I was blown away. I honestly didn't find it too hard to follow. It seemed obvious Agent Smith is a virus now, and I can't wait for the showdown with Neo/Smith in the rain in Revolutions, that looks totally badassed too.

I liked the Matrix, but Reloaded is unphucking- believeable. Being a computer geek, a philosophy buff and a former martial arts student, I took to this moving much more than the first.

Mind you, I liked Phantom Menace, and I thought A.I. was cool too. I try to have a wide appreciation for movies and try to get what the director/storyteller is trying to say. I think too many people go into the theater with a chip on their shoulder saying "okay, blow me away" and then they nit pick a movie to death until it's not even enjoyable for them. Relax, sit back, open your mind and let it take you for a ride, you'll have a lot more fun

Chaplin

I look at it this way...

Yes, there was a LOT of exposition and narrative, but unfortunately, there was little plot in relation to that narrative. Nothing really happened except we found out that Agent Smith is a virus now and that everything is the Matrix. It totally invalidates the first movie--and since the consensus is that the first movie is better, it's kind of a hard pill to swallow.

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vince56

????? Back that up. How does it invalidate the first movie?

Chaplin

Have you read the earlier parts of this thread? The predominant theory is that Zion is ALSO part of the Matrix. If that's the case, everything that Morpheus tried to explain in the first film is a fantasy.

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vince56

It didn't "invalidate" it, it simply twisted and deepened the story. Now we know the matrix may be several layers. What Morpheus said about the matrix is true, but he didn't know how deep the rabbit's hole really goes.

Chaplin

He said that Zion was reality and The Matrix not. Well, if Zion is part of the Matrix, logic itself dictates that Zion is not, thus invalidating Morpheus' entire explanation.

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Renz

I sincerely hope that you are wrong and that there is some sort of "reality" in the world that is inhabited by "real" people. You guys have obviously spent a lot more time thinking about this (maybe too much time ), but if there is no distinction between The Matrix and the physical world then that kind of wrecks it for me.

Thought the movie started too slow.

I liked The Merovingian (sp?). He was interesting and I liked his malevolence.

I agree with almost everyone that the rave scene was boring and too long. I also thought Morpheus's speech was bland and not not very inspiring.

And maybe it is just me (I did get my degree in the Humanities after all), but I didn't understand a freakin' thing that the Architect was talking about.

Over all I liked it though and would recommend it. Needed more plot, but I will reserve judgment until after Revolutions.

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Chaplin

That definitely seems to be the consensus around here...

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mdamien13

Okay, finally got to go see this.

I didn't like the first film as much as everybody else. I thought the story was decent but I hate Keanu's acting (ever since his dance sequence in "The Watcher" I've had trouble sleeping) and I got very bored with the slo-mo in the action sequences (although the sequences as a whole I found good).

I liked the second one quite a bit more than the first. It left quite a bit to be thought over, discussed, and debated (as is very evident in this thread). The chemistry between Trinity and Neo was excellent. Morpheus is still Morpheus, and despite his presence the movie never let that annoying kid in Zion become Neo's hopalong boy wonder.

I still have a huge problem with the use of slo-mo in the action sequences, though. To me, there were only a few parts (most notably in the stairwell fight) where this helped the story, but more often I found myself distracted by it. The fight with 100 Agent Smiths was mindblowing, but I couldn't help but wonder how much better it would have been at full speed.

Also, as much as I love Monica Belluci (she makes Brotherhood of the Wolf almost watchable) she was almost useless in this movie except as eye candy. When her character asked to kiss Neo, I had to ask "why?" except for the funny reaction from Trinity.

Loved the twins, though. Any villain with a straight razor is okay in my book.

Overall I recommend it, though. Definitely worth watching and a what a setup for the finale.

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