Suns' gorilla get props

[phxrising]

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5793024FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=8393

Top 10 sports mascots



Team: Phoenix Suns
The first NBA mascot, Go, is the hairy gorilla in a Phoenix Suns warmup shirt that revolutionized professional sports mascots. Debuting in 1980, Go shunned the traditional route of comedic dancing and opted for amazing athletic feats. The Suns' gorilla began rappelling from the ceiling and became the first mascot to feature high-flying dunks and trampolines in his act. With a team that includes a mascot coordinator to set up the props and a younger brother named Junior, Go leapt off the trampoline and into the hearts of Phoenix fans. Memorable moment: When he was a member of a rival team, Go taunted Oliver Miller, who was famous throughout most of his career for being overweight. But once Miller joined the Suns, the big ape and the big man in the middle resolved their differences and aired a spoof of Friends that portrayed them as the best of friends.

[Phxchris1989]

Yes! I read that article not too long ago.

Me too the rest of the NBA: our mascot can kick your mascot's ass.

[JWF]

Go is easily the best NBA mascot.

[asudevil83]

i wonder how old the guy is under the mask, and how many guys we've gone through over the years.

[Gaddabout]

i wonder how old the guy is under the mask, and how many guys we've gone through over the years.

Exactly two, I think.

The best video spoof Go's done was the lube job (done at the local Lube-N-Go) he did to his hair in honor of former Phoenix Sun and then-current Lakers coach Pat Riley. IIRC, that was during the playoffs. Riley caught glimpse of the monitor but didn't seem amused.

[NugzFan]

rocky>go :)

[sunsfn]

He did a funny thing to Moses Malone.

He came out on the court dressed like Moses, with the tall staff and white gown........the crowd and Malone really liked it....great stuff!

[Gaddabout]

He did a funny thing to Moses Malone.

He came out on the court dressed like Moses, with the tall staff and white gown........the crowd and Malone really liked it....great stuff!

Kareem was pretty outspoken with his dislike of the Suns gorilla. He condemned the mascot as a racially-inspired motif.

But then, the Gorilla was always pretty hard on Kareem.

[SactownSunsFan]

rocky>go :)

Barkley kicked Rocky's butt.

Go>Rocky. :thumbup:

[TBaslim]

rocky>go :)

You are joking right? It's not even close between Rocky's Autos and The Gorilla. The Gorilla is truly unique - others are fine, but mostly copycats.

:)

Not to be a geezer, but the article isn't quite right. The original Gorilla did mostly cool dancing and some lesser athletic stuff. He was a really good dancer, actually. The second guy (and still current, I think) to wear the fur was a former gymnast who introduced all the dunks and stuff.

Urban legend has it that he won the job in Gorilla tryouts (after the first guy retired) with such crazy trampoline/gymnast stuff that the Suns gave him the job, but made him promise to tone down the risk factor in the act for insurance reasons.

Speaking of Gorilla Lore - do folks know how the Gorilla came to be the Suns mascot way back when?

[SactownSunsFan]

^^ We were originally set to be the Phoenix Gorillas? :shrug:

[Gaddabout]

Not to be a geezer, but the article isn't quite right. The original Gorilla did mostly cool dancing and some lesser athletic stuff. He was a really good dancer, actually. The second guy (and still current, I think) to wear the fur was a former gymnast who introduced all the dunks and stuff.
The original Gorilla was only known for dancing and playing pranks in the audience. So much was he known for his dancing, he made the Dire Straits' "Walk of Life" video. At some point in the mid-70s someone hired the original Gorilla as a singing telegram. Then he stuck around and went to a game and couldn't help but goof off, so the Suns brought him on as gametime entertainment. I think it was 79 or 80.

The original guy broke his foot and they had someone replace him for a short time. It wasn't long after that that he decided to retire and they held auditions circa ~ 1988. That's when they hired former ASU gymnast Bob Wolff, who revolutionized the trend of gymnastics and acrobatics for all mascots, not just NBA mascots. At one point, virtually all the crazy new NBA mascots were either former ASU gymnaists referred by Wolff or trained by Wolff in some capacity. Wolff also was the first to include the use of an AV staff for in-game video entertainment, and might be the most visible mascot in terms of local publicity next to the San Diego Chicken. In terms of identifiable image, I think he's long surpassed the Chicken.

[phxrising]

You are joking right? It's not even close between Rocky's Autos and The Gorilla. The Gorilla is truly unique - others are fine, but mostly copycats.

:)

Not to be a geezer, but the article isn't quite right. The original Gorilla did mostly cool dancing and some lesser athletic stuff. He was a really good dancer, actually. The second guy (and still current, I think) to wear the fur was a former gymnast who introduced all the dunks and stuff.

Urban legend has it that he won the job in Gorilla tryouts (after the first guy retired) with such crazy trampoline/gymnast stuff that the Suns gave him the job, but made him promise to tone down the risk factor in the act for insurance reasons.

Speaking of Gorilla Lore - do folks know how the Gorilla came to be the Suns mascot way back when?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Suns_Gorilla



The Suns Gorilla is the official mascot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mascot) of the Phoenix Suns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Suns). He is famous for his entertaining antics and dunks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk) which he performs off of a trampoline between the 3rd and 4th quarters. He is also a member of the Mascot Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mascot_Hall_of_Fame). The man inside The Suns Gorilla is Bob Woolf.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/SunsGorilla.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SunsGorilla.jpg) The Phoenix Suns Gorilla preforming one of his famous slam dunks between the 3rd and 4th quarters.


Woolf was hired in 1988 from an open tryout.
These are excerpts from a Phoenix New Times (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2005-05-12/culture/speakeasy_1.html) article from May 12, 2005:
NT: But why a gorilla? I mean, what's the connection between basketball and an ape?
Woolf: None whatsoever. But in the late '70s, there was a singing gorillagram at one of the Suns games. Someone paid him to sing "Happy Birthday" to somebody's wife or something. But then he stuck around in his gorilla suit afterward because he loved basketball. He showed up a couple more times, and one time he got out on the court and danced with a lady, and another time he ran out onto the court and shot a basket. He was entertaining to the public. The following year the Suns and the Gorilla got together.
NT: And that was you?
Woolf: No. I'm the second Gorilla. I came in 1988. The first guy did the first eight years or so. You couldn't design a better mascot for a basketball team than a gorilla, because he can wear clothes -- I go to Goodwill and get oversized jackets and stuff -- while other [mascots] have a hard time finding things to fit over their costumes.

[SunsTzu]

The second guy (and still current, I think) to wear the fur was a former gymnast who introduced all the dunks and stuff.

During the Barkely years they were on their 3rd Gorilla iirc.

[SunsTzu]

Guess I was mistaken.

[JizzHornay]

Didnt even know his name was Go.

Son of a female dog.

-Jizz

[jbeecham]

My GF did a loan for one of the Adio Sol Patrol members last year and he told her that the current Gorilla is about 43 yrs old and about to retire (he was hoping he would get the job because the gorilla makes about $250,000 a year).

[jenna2891]

Didnt even know his name was Go.


me neither. i don't think i care for it.

[sunsfn]

Didnt even know his name was Go.

I had not heard that and have been going to the games before and since the Gorilla started.

Gaddabout should know about that............has that been his nickname very long?

[haverford]

I agree with Kareem. I'd wager that a number of current NBA players find him offensive as well.

[Gaddabout]

I agree with Kareem. I'd wager that a number of current NBA players find him offensive as well.

If you read the above history of the Gorilla, you will see this wasn't some jackass marketing plan. It was brilliance born out of silliness, before the NBA had sights on global domination. This was still in the time when the Suns put two free tickets inside the Republic/Gazette to get people to go to the games.

Just to prove how old I am, gorilla suits were fairly common for sight gags during the 50s, 60s, and 70s. You could go to a costume shop -- every town had one -- and rent one for the day. There was nothing racial about it. For about $12 and a tip, you could send flowers and a guy in a gorilla suit to someone's office to sing happy birthday to your girlfriend.

I admire Kareem. He has more to offer the world than just basketball glory, and I don't discount his opinions. He's just wrong on this one. It's silliness. Nothing more.

[Gaddabout]

I had not heard that and have been going to the games before and since the Gorilla started.

Gaddabout should know about that............has that been his nickname very long?

I don't think they started calling him Go until 1990 or something. Before that he was just the Suns gorilla, and in fact, the only people who refer to him as Go are the poor, underpaid 20somethings in the marketing department. And Bob Wolff. When you see marketing for his public appearances, it's never as Go. It's always as "the Phoenix Suns gorilla." That's how Jerry Colangelo prefers it.

[haverford]

Perhaps he is wrong, but he is not alone (both in terms of the players and some fans) in his opinion about the racist implications of the Gorilla. You may want to assert such views out of legitimacy, but in doing so you end up alienating good people...BTW, I'm not arguing with heat or antagonism, but in friendship.

[phxrising]

Why is a gorilla in and of it self racist? Why would it be offensive? He is out there entering the crowd doing nothing inappropriate or degrading to any group of people. (Pat Riley and Oliver Miller may disagree)
Maybe I'm missing something.

[haverford]

Why is a gorilla in and of it self racist? Why would it be offensive? He is out there entering the crowd doing nothing inappropriate or degrading to any group of people. (Pat Riley and Oliver Miller may disagree)
Maybe I'm missing something.

It is viewed as racist because it draws on the very old association made by racists between Africans and primates. There are many examples of this, both historical and contemporary. A slam-dunking gorilla comes perilously close to that association, whether you see it or not. If you need me to search them out for you I will. Again, posted in friendship not accusation....

[anytimeuwnt]

This isn't 1950 and we shouldn't have to explain why the Suns Gorilla isn't racist. People are very touchy about this subject but a cuddly NBA mascot is the last place you should look. Stick to Bobby Byrd....

Not you personally.... but some people can look for issues where there really aren't any to find.

[haverford]

And many people find those issues where they'd rather not find them. You may not like that they do so, but being sensitive to other peoples' perceptions isn't just good marketing, it's good citizenship....

[BC867]

The original Gorilla was named Henry Rojas. His solo dancing routines, and the league-wide music that accompanied him, brought our crowds to life.

He showed much more "personality" in that costume, with some clever spoofs and routines. When he came out to that Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass instrumental, everybody perked up.

The acrobatics of our current Gorilla, and the many ASU gymnasts throughout the league, put on quite a show in their own way.

But with the acrobatic troop that does most of the tricks and the Suns dancers taking most of the timeouts, he has been much less active over the past few years.

[cheesebeef]

The original Gorilla was named Henry Rojas. His solo dancing routines, and the league-wide music that accompanied him, brought our crowds to life.

He showed much more "personality" in that costume, with some clever spoofs and routines. When he came out to that Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass instrumental, everybody perked up.

The acrobatics of our current Gorilla, and the many ASU gymnasts throughout the league, put on quite a show in their own way.

But with the acrobatic troop that does most of the tricks and the Suns dancers taking most of the timeouts, he has been much less active over the past few years.

I love the Gorilla as much as the next guy, but IMO, in the last couple years, he looks like he's just picking up a paycheck. He doesn't have NEAR the energy he used to and that ridiculous zoo crew just sucks. Game 6 of the WCF, they missed EVERY ONE OF THEIR DUNKS, except one. And before that, the Gorilla didn't even get everyone on their feet - truly sad IMO.

[haverford]

Yeah, and there's that too Cheese...:p

[SactownSunsFan]

I love the Gorilla as much as the next guy, but IMO, in the last couple years, he looks like he's just picking up a paycheck. He doesn't have NEAR the energy he used to and that ridiculous zoo crew just sucks. Game 6 of the WCF, they missed EVERY ONE OF THEIR DUNKS, except one. And before that, the Gorilla didn't even get everyone on their feet - truly sad IMO.

Well the guy's gotta around 40 by now. Give him a break! :D

[devilalum]

Gorilla Gets Props?!?!

How long until USA games start?
Thank god we have USA games this summer.

[phxrising]

yeah kinda slow in the "news" dept lately

[F-Dog]

rocky>go :)
Pathetic. :lol:


To me, the Gorilla will never top his Oliver Miller bit. I hope the new guy (when he's installed) is gifted at the comedy aspect of the role, and not just another ASU trampoline dunker.


I don't think the Gorilla is a racist mascot, just because of the history; the intent seems to have been entirely innocent from the start. There's plenty of work to do in clearing pro sports of the evils of the past--starting with getting rid of the 'Redskins' sobriquet in the NFL--but IMO the Gorilla is more of a cheerful anachronism from a simpler time, like the (formerly) Washington "Bullets".

[HooverDam]

I got to meet the original Gorilla when as a kid I went to Westphal basketball camp. He was a guest speaker and told us all about the history and stuff (which has already been posted here), if I recall correctly he was a hispanic guy (which for some reason in my mind decreases his chance of anti African racism). The article is correct, he was doing a Gorillagram for someone in the crowd, during the time out, some music played and he started dancing, everyone loved it- he stuck around. I think in his first appearance/early days he'd wear a trench coat over the gorilla suit.

[Gaddabout]

Haverford, FWIW, I understand what you mean about intent being pointless in marketing, particularly when dealing with racial sensibilities in this country.

I also think we can agree homes will be built on the McDowell Mountain Preserve before this town allows the Gorilla to be yanked for any reason. The Gorilla has become a Phoenix institution.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Perhaps he is wrong, but he is not alone (both in terms of the players and some fans) in his opinion about the racist implications of the Gorilla. You may want to assert such views out of legitimacy, but in doing so you end up alienating good people...BTW, I'm not arguing with heat or antagonism, but in friendship.

there are no IMPLICATIONS. in order for something to be implied it has to be purposeful or done with intent. as the story indicates, no such intent ever existed or continues to exist. if someone sees the gorilla and makes that ASSUMPTION, that is they're own sensitivities overcoming reality. gorillas exist in the wild. are they implying racism? it's the same disconnect to say that a gorilla mascot that grew out of a singing telegram is implied racism. that's just misinformed opinions.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I love the Gorilla as much as the next guy, but IMO, in the last couple years, he looks like he's just picking up a paycheck. He doesn't have NEAR the energy he used to and that ridiculous zoo crew just sucks. Game 6 of the WCF, they missed EVERY ONE OF THEIR DUNKS, except one. And before that, the Gorilla didn't even get everyone on their feet - truly sad IMO.


yeah, we were SORELY disappointed. he's a shell of his former self. that said, if he's really earning $250,000, i'd hang on for dear life to that job too.

[SunsTzu]

yeah, we were SORELY disappointed. he's a shell of his former self. that said, if he's really earning $250,000, i'd hang on for dear life to that job too.

No kidding. To get paid that much to watch Suns games and make a few appearences would be awesome.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I got to meet the original Gorilla when as a kid I went to Westphal basketball camp. He was a guest speaker and told us all about the history and stuff (which has already been posted here), if I recall correctly he was a hispanic guy (which for some reason in my mind decreases his chance of anti African racism). The article is correct, he was doing a Gorillagram for someone in the crowd, during the time out, some music played and he started dancing, everyone loved it- he stuck around. I think in his first appearance/early days he'd wear a trench coat over the gorilla suit.


i went to the davis-westphal basketball camp as a child. did me no good. i panicked everytime i touched the ball and immediately passed it. got to meet mike braatz and kyle macy i think. westy only showed for a day. i don't even remember seeing the greyhound.

[haverford]

there are no IMPLICATIONS. in order for something to be implied it has to be purposeful or done with intent. as the story indicates, no such intent ever existed or continues to exist. if someone sees the gorilla and makes that ASSUMPTION, that is they're own sensitivities overcoming reality. gorillas exist in the wild. are they implying racism? it's the same disconnect to say that a gorilla mascot that grew out of a singing telegram is implied racism. that's just misinformed opinions.

I disagree. First, there is a factual history of racists connecting primates and blacks and that is, unfortunately, part of many black people's experience of racism, even today. Deny that if you wish. Second, intent has little to do with it; when my 11 year old hits my 9 year old and then says "I didn't mean it" it does not absolve her, she's done something hurtful. Period. Racism has its brutal violent face, and its less direct and more insidious guise.

Now, I am not contending that because you like the Gorilla you are racist or because the Colangelos employed it as a mascot they are racist. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Simply put, the Gorilla is viewed as a racist symbol by many people.

[TucsonDevil]

It is viewed as racist because it draws on the very old association made by racists between Africans and primates. There are many examples of this, both historical and contemporary. A slam-dunking gorilla comes perilously close to that association, whether you see it or not. If you need me to search them out for you I will. Again, posted in friendship not accusation....

Haverford, I have to disagree with your theory. I know I run the risk of being labelled a racist when dancing around this line, but read it for what it is worth. Racists have used the term "Monkey" to describe a African-Americans for many years. However, the term Gorilla as a derogitory term was used to describe big, muscle heads, that had low IQs and couldn't speak well. That term is used more to describe "body guards" and body builders -no matter their race or ethnicity. Meaning, they are big and physically strong, but not too bright.

There are NUMEROUS examples of racism that are obvious in history and today - we don't need to search for them where they don't exisit.

[haverford]

Google came up with this one in a nanosecond: http://www.overthrow.com/creator/wmb/credo41.asp
It is nauseating, but indicative.

Do you really want to make that distinction, Tucson Devil? Jefferson and other natural historians of the 18thc. thought the connection was more properly to the orangutang. The point is not monkey, gorilla, or orangutang, it is primates....it is an old old old method of racist put-down.....

Look, I'm sorry if I've pulled anyone out of their comfort zones.

[TucsonDevil]

Haverford... I too don't like to discuss such sensative topics. My point is that the Term Gorilla over the past 20 years is not really a "racist" term. Yeah, often it is used to describe "Football Players", but it is not due to their skin color, but rather their physique.

[nothin' but net]

I can see Haverford's connection to a certain degree. I can see how a small-minded racist may use that as a racial insult. If this connection is made, what about the San Diego Chicken. I heard many un-funny jokes comparing a chicken walk to the "soul brutha strut".

I am sure, when someone sees the world through the eyes of racism, most anything can be seen as racist. I think that is the problem, whether you are the perpetrator or the victim.

[TucsonDevil]

When I see a chicken, I think of the French...


... that was below the belt.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I disagree. First, there is a factual history of racists connecting primates and blacks and that is, unfortunately, part of many black people's experience of racism, even today. Deny that if you wish. Second, intent has little to do with it; when my 11 year old hits my 9 year old and then says "I didn't mean it" it does not absolve her, she's done something hurtful. Period. Racism has its brutal violent face, and its less direct and more insidious guise.

Now, I am not contending that because you like the Gorilla you are racist or because the Colangelos employed it as a mascot they are racist. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Simply put, the Gorilla is viewed as a racist symbol by many people.

i'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about the misuse of monkey/ape/gorilla with blacks as a derogatory insinuation. i'm not denying that. i don't make that claim.

the claim i AM making is that every monkey/ape/gorilla is not automatically a racial slam. a book about a monkey is not racial. a movie about an ape (let's say Funky Monkey) is not a racial slam. a gorilla as a mascot is not a racial slam.

and intent is what it's all about. your analogy is awful. if your daughter hits your other daughter and then claims to have not meant it . . what the hell is that? if she intended to hit her it doesn't matter what she says. the INTENT is all that matters. if she accidentally hit her sister, then no intent was meant and it's an ACCIDENT. in the case of the gorilla it's nothing more than a coincidence that the singing telegram was dressed as a gorilla and that blacks are derided as gorillas. there is NO NEXUS.

so you're implying that because someone paid a man in a gorilla suit to sing to some fan at a game and the team thought it was cute and so hired the gorilla as a mascot that some "less obvious and insidious guise" was at work? that's patently ridiculous and quite possibly either the most tenuous conspiracy theory i've ever heard, or the worst organized argument i've ever had to refute.

and you ARE implying that the colengeli or at the least the organization is using the gorilla as a racist symbol, otherwise why in the hell are we talking about it? and if the gorilla has sunk to the depths of just being a racist symbol, then i guess we should take 'em outta zoos, remove them from books, movies, etc. b/c they must not retain their own identity, they're only racist symbols.

i'm sorry if this seems overly harsh, but i can't stand when people take a sensitive topic and expand its scope to the absurd. pc has its place, this is not one of them.

[HooverDam]

:notworthy Ouchie

Also, when I went to Westphal camp it wasn't called Davis-Westphal, just Westphal. I never saw Paul, just his brother Bill a lot. And Frank Johnson would come and play one on one against kids for their shoes. But I was the same way, too nervous to shoot, I could play D and get lots of assists, but I always passed.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

:notworthy Ouchie

Also, when I went to Westphal camp it wasn't called Davis-Westphal, just Westphal. I never saw Paul, just his brother Bill a lot. And Frank Johnson would come and play one on one against kids for their shoes. But I was the same way, too nervous to shoot, I could play D and get lots of assists, but I always passed.

i'm probably a lot older than you. when i went both westy and walter were PLAYERS on the suns, not coaches. there was no frank johnson. i got ronnie lee's autograph.

[haverford]

i'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about the misuse of monkey/ape/gorilla with blacks as a derogatory insinuation. i'm not denying that. i don't make that claim.

the claim i AM making is that every monkey/ape/gorilla is not automatically a racial slam. a book about a monkey is not racial. a movie about an ape (let's say Funky Monkey) is not a racial slam. a gorilla as a mascot is not a racial slam.

and intent is what it's all about. your analogy is awful. if your daughter hits your other daughter and then claims to have not meant it . . what the hell is that? if she intended to hit her it doesn't matter what she says. the INTENT is all that matters. if she accidentally hit her sister, then no intent was meant and it's an ACCIDENT. in the case of the gorilla it's nothing more than a coincidence that the singing telegram was dressed as a gorilla and that blacks are derided as gorillas. there is NO NEXUS.

so you're implying that because someone paid a man in a gorilla suit to sing to some fan at a game and the team thought it was cute and so hired the gorilla as a mascot that some "less obvious and insidious guise" was at work? that's patently ridiculous and quite possibly either the most tenuous conspiracy theory i've ever heard, or the worst organized argument i've ever had to refute.

and you ARE implying that the colengeli or at the least the organization is using the gorilla as a racist symbol, otherwise why in the hell are we talking about it? and if the gorilla has sunk to the depths of just being a racist symbol, then i guess we should take 'em outta zoos, remove them from books, movies, etc. b/c they must not retain their own identity, they're only racist symbols.

i'm sorry if this seems overly harsh, but i can't stand when people take a sensitive topic and expand its scope to the absurd. pc has its place, this is not one of them.

Oy. I explicitly stated that no one who either employs the Gorilla or likes and appreciates him is necessarily a racist. I have been trying to say, obviously not well enough for Ouchie-Z-Clown, that context is everything in such cases. It's not an outlandish claim, and can be explained calmly. Of course, gorillas are in and of themselves not racist (whatever that might mean) and ought to go right on enjoying their jungle habitats and what not [did I really just write that?]. But when people use them in certain contexts (when race is close at hand, as it is in the NBA) you need to be careful. When you have a lot of black men, great athletes all, slam dunking on a court and then you run a "gorilla" mascot out who wears the team warm up, then you've brought such associations uncomfortably close together. For some people, but obviously not for all (not everyone is required to see it the same way, but perhaps those who don't might be persuaded to respect those who do).

When my daughter hits my other daughter and causes her pain, whether intended or not, we expect an apology. It is a caring and good thing to do. It shows that my daughters care about each other beyond the question of blame or intent. Other examples abound: If you run over someone with your suitcase in an airport you excuse yourself; if you accidentally spray someone with a garden hose you apologize; etc...... These are civilized gestures.

What bothers me about your response is that you've so willfully ignored what I have written and tried very hard to mount arguments that are deeply illogical and fact-deprived. And worse you seem to feel really good about it. I've had enough of this thread. Take it easy.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oy. I explicitly stated that no one who either employs the Gorilla or likes and appreciates him is necessarily a racist. I have been trying to say, obviously not well enough for Ouchie-Z-Clown, that context is everything in such cases. It's not an outlandish claim, and can be explained calmly. Of course, gorillas are in and of themselves not racist (whatever that might mean) and ought to go right on enjoying their jungle habitats and what not [did I really just write that?]. But when people use them in certain contexts (when race is close at hand, as it is in the NBA) you need to be careful. When you have a lot of black men, great athletes all, slam dunking on a court and then you run a "gorilla" mascot out who wears the team warm up, then you've brought such associations uncomfortably close together. For some people, but obviously not for all (not everyone is required to see it the same way, but perhaps those who don't might be persuaded to respect those who do).

When my daughter hits my other daughter and causes her pain, whether intended or not, we expect an apology. It is a caring and good thing to do. It shows that my daughters care about each other beyond the question of blame or intent. Other examples abound: If you run over someone with your suitcase in an airport you excuse yourself; if you accidentally spray someone with a garden hose you apologize; etc...... These are civilized gestures.

What bothers me about your response is that you've so willfully ignored what I have written and tried very hard to mount arguments that are deeply illogical and fact-deprived. And worse you seem to feel really good about it. I've had enough of this thread. Take it easy.

haverford, i'm sorry if it seems like i've been in attack mode. it's how i've been trained to argue (for ill or good . . . i'm an attorney). your final paragraph is amusing. "deeply illogical and fact-deprived" . . . ? where was i lacking in logic? where were facts missing? when i stated that your analogy was faulty i made an attempt to show why. can you please do me the same courtesy?

i get the apology thing, but your examples are overt physical pains or irritants. they are situations where the individual running over the suitcase, hitting the sister, or spraying the passerby KNOWS they did something that ACTUALLY causes some overt discomfort. the suns org by hiring the gorilla are not overtly offending anyone. the only way someone can be offended is if they take the gorilla out of context. if the org had originally hired the gorilla with racist intent, then i agree that an apology would be warranted. but sans intent the only insult is if someone takes a few mental leaps to get there such as - gorillas have been used to degrade blacks, blacks play basketball, this organization has hired a singing telegram in a gorilla suit to entertain their fans, this must all be connected despite the story of the mascot's origination being completely innocuous, so the gorilla must be seen as derogatory. you have to take a leap to get to that final conclusion given all the facts. they just don't add up. i could see if you don't have the facts (like the origination story) that you might take offense, but once you know the story of how the gorilla originated no offense should be taken and thus no apology should be needed. no offense was meant and a gorilla, taken in and of itself, is not patently offensive. it's only when you make mental leaps to connect what's offensive and the nonoffensive symbol that anyone can be offended.

[haverford]

haverford, i'm sorry if it seems like i've been in attack mode. it's how i've been trained to argue (for ill or good . . . i'm an attorney). your final paragraph is amusing. "deeply illogical and fact-deprived" . . . ? where was i lacking in logic? where were facts missing? when i stated that your analogy was faulty i made an attempt to show why. can you please do me the same courtesy?

i get the apology thing, but your examples are overt physical pains or irritants. they are situations where the individual running over the suitcase, hitting the sister, or spraying the passerby KNOWS they did something that ACTUALLY causes some overt discomfort. the suns org by hiring the gorilla are not overtly offending anyone. the only way someone can be offended is if they take the gorilla out of context. if the org had originally hired the gorilla with racist intent, then i agree that an apology would be warranted. but sans intent the only insult is if someone takes a few mental leaps to get there such as - gorillas have been used to degrade blacks, blacks play basketball, this organization has hired a singing telegram in a gorilla suit to entertain their fans, this must all be connected despite the story of the mascot's origination being completely innocuous, so the gorilla must be seen as derogatory. you have to take a leap to get to that final conclusion given all the facts. they just don't add up. i could see if you don't have the facts (like the origination story) that you might take offense, but once you know the story of how the gorilla originated no offense should be taken and thus no apology should be needed. no offense was meant and a gorilla, taken in and of itself, is not patently offensive. it's only when you make mental leaps to connect what's offensive and the nonoffensive symbol that anyone can be offended.

OK, by illogic and fact-deprivation I meant (perhaps in slightly overheated rhetoric--something I promised not to do earlier in the thread) your contention that an implication must entail intent. If I misunderstood your point, I apologize; but it seemed to me that you made my words mean what you needed them to mean in spite of what I was taking great pains to make unambiguous (that I'm not saying Go's fans are all racists, that there is in fact a history of associating blacks and primates, etc.). Furthermore, the idea that when any symbol or creature is bad or hurtful in one context it must then be bad or hurtful in all contexts is just silly, imo. Think of swastikas--which are as bad as it gets thanks to the Nazis, but can be appreciated too within their original contexts of Native American art. Or, if that is too charged an example, think of mice, which were used by the Nazis as a metaphor for Jews, but have also been enjoyed by children of all ages in the person of Mickey. No one wants to ban mice or their representations, least of all me; it is an unfortunate context that provides the basis of my argument here.

As for intent, I'm still comfortable with what I wrote, though I do appreciate much more what you say above. I don't think it is a leap to see the association. I don't think those who are offended are delusional or ignorant (Kareem for example), they just bring a different context to the event. Are all contexts equally valid? No, I wouldn't say that either, and maybe we can agree there. But I've spoken with enough thoughtful people on the topic to be persuaded that the Gorilla is a big turn off for some people, especially African-Americans, for all of the above reasons....

[HooverDam]

Just out of curiosity Haverford if if could wave a magic wand and make you Robert Sarver- what would you do about the Gorilla? Get rid of him, or keep him and try to revamp his image, or something else Im not thinking of...?

[SunsTzu]

The thing I like about this debate is because one person(Kareem) thought there might be racial overtones with the gorilla it's assumed others have a problem with it as well. I've never heard any groups of people maing a stink about the gorilla. Even a guy like Michael Wilbon who hates mascots will talk about how the gorilla is the only good one.

I think if players(or anyone else for that matter) were upset about the gorilla we would have heard something about it like when Oliver Miller tried to sue him for wearing a fat suit.

[haverford]

Just out of curiosity Haverford if if could wave a magic wand and make you Robert Sarver- what would you do about the Gorilla? Get rid of him, or keep him and try to revamp his image, or something else Im not thinking of...?

In spite of the fact that it will confirm that I am a humorless, PC-obsessed, kill-joy, I will honestly say that I'd fire the Gorilla. But in my defense I'd have used the salary-savings to sign TT.:p

[HooverDam]

In spite of the fact that it will confirm that I am a humorless, PC-obsessed, kill-joy, I will honestly say that I'd fire the Gorilla. But in my defense I'd have used the salary-savings to sign TT.:p

You dont mean "in spite of" do you, dont you mean "because of". Im having trouble understanding what you are saying

[jenna2891]

You dont mean "in spite of" do you, dont you mean "because of". Im having trouble understanding what you are saying

no, he had it right.

[haverford]

no, he had it right.

Snap Jenna!

[NugzFan]

Barkley kicked Rocky's butt.

Go>Rocky. :thumbup:

lol, the rocky barkley confrontations is exactly why rocky>go! those were epic!

[NugzFan]

Pathetic. :lol:

pathetic? how so? rocky is the best mascot in the nba!

[Chaplin]

pathetic? how so? rocky is the best mascot in the nba!

It's one thing to come on here and brag against the Nuggets, it's quite another to come on here and start touting the greatness of your mascot!

[WastedFate]

How did this thread ever reach 5 pages!? :D

[Gaddabout]

How did this thread ever reach 5 pages!? :D

It's August and NBA-TV is showing regular season re-runs. This thread is way more interesting than Boston/Milwaukee circa Dec. 95.

[WastedFate]

It's August and NBA-TV is showing regular season re-runs. This thread is way more interesting than Boston/Milwaukee circa Dec. 95.

True. :thumbup:

[NugzFan]

It's one thing to come on here and brag against the Nuggets, it's quite another to come on here and start touting the greatness of your mascot!

cant help it. rockys the man. or cat. or whatever.

[dbUNIT16]

I always thought it'd be funny to throw up that video of the Gorilla on the jumbotron's with the phrase "Go Apeshit!" flashing across it. I understand why they can't thought.