TJ Warren now

Discussion in 'Phoenix Suns' started by JCSunsfan, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. ColdPickleNachos

    ColdPickleNachos Registered

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    I said "Sure it is" in response to player ratings being subjective. I would happily speak that way to you in person.

    If, after having done so, you repeated what I said in an effort to mock my point, our personal interaction would likely change in tone and demeanor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  2. JCSunsfan

    JCSunsfan Registered User

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    Not sure its worth arguing any more. Stats can lie. That’s pretty obvious.
     
  3. ColdPickleNachos

    ColdPickleNachos Registered

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    I'm going to stop responding now, as I am going down the road of myself bringing the animus to this board I was trying to address.

    Let's leave it at this:

    1. I believe player rankings are largely subjective.
    2. I am happy to have TJ Warren on the Suns.
    3. This conversation is clearly not going down a constructive path. I apologize for my contribution to that.
     
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  4. hcsilla

    hcsilla Registered User

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    I don't think so.

    West is just a rotation player on an elite team, so in his case RPM can be misleading.

    Covington is one of the top 3 and D players, plays +32 min. for a good team, averages 14 PPG on 58% TS.

    Warren is less effective on offense and a much weaker defender.

    I didn't use RPM as a Holy Bible but it is a good tool (combining with others) to determire which player is more valuable.

    For example in case of Covington and Warren, it is obviously Covington.
     
  5. Covert Rain

    Covert Rain Father smelt of elderberries!

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    This. Stats are an indicator but they can be extremely misleading depending on your team, scheme and coaching. There is definitely an element of subjectivity in rankings.
     
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  6. SirStefan32

    SirStefan32 Krycek, Alex Krycek

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    This is definitely an interesting phenomenon that is somewhat recurring. It was the same thing with Bledsoe, Dragic, and Bell, Marion, and a few other before. It is amazing to me that knowledgeable people can look at the same player, look at the same stats and to one group he is a top-15 SF and to the other group he is a top five.
     
  7. 3rdside

    3rdside Registered

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    So consider his contract as an added dimension:

    “Warren’s rank in this league as a player is (arguably) hard to determine; by some metrics he’s a top 10 player by others he’s not, but if you also consider the value of his contract, and length of service due under that contract, dollar for dollar he’s one of the most valuable players in the league”.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. elindholm

    elindholm rehabilitated

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    "One of the most..." never does anything for me because it doesn't say one of the how many most. Is Warren one of the 200 most valuable players in the league? Sure. One of the 10 most? No. So now there's a whole additional layer of confusion about how many players are included under the umbrella "one of the most."

    You could have two people who agree precisely on Warren's value, but still disagree on whether he qualifies by the "one of the most" language. Heck, Trump is one of the best Presidents in U.S. history, if you say one of the 45 best.

    It's a shame that Bill Simmons doesn't do his NBA Trade Value column anymore, because he made an attempt to get to exactly this question. His analyses were biased, but at least they were a starting point. If Simmons were to do that column now, would Warren crack the top 50? I'd lean toward No, but it's a close call.
     
  9. hcsilla

    hcsilla Registered User

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    What pick in this year's draft would Warren net if the Suns would put him on the market?
     
  10. ColdPickleNachos

    ColdPickleNachos Registered

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    As a guess...mid-lottery. On his contract, I think he's worth a lot. I doubt anyone is trading out of the top 6 (maybe 7) in this stacked class for anything short of an all-star, but I think he could fetch a pick between 7-10.

    Incidentally, I wouldn't trade him for a pick unless it was top 6 (maybe 7). We don't need more raw prospects unless they are potential franchise-changers (of which this draft has a shocking amount).
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  11. 3rdside

    3rdside Registered

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    I don't buy that my deliberately general generalisation (!) doesn't make sense - one of the best means one of the best (in the upper percentile of a data set, to get specific).


    I would have thought a metric like:

    PER x Value of Contract x Length of Contract Remaining

    Would give a pretty good idea of what's what?


    And i'd bet Warren is easily a top 50 player based on this.

    Considering the link below that shows PER for the current season, filtered by Minutes Played > 800 (click on the PER column header to rank by this), he's top 50 already - 41 to be exact - and considering Warren's contract, he is surely "one of the best":

    https://www.basketball-reference.co...7.9&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=800&order_by=ws
     
  12. hsandhu

    hsandhu Registered User

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    What pick would Covington or ariza get?

    Congratulations on posing a question that ends up losing your own argument.
     
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  13. 3rdside

    3rdside Registered

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    For a really general metric, I really like this measure.
     
  14. devilalum

    devilalum Salary Cap Casualty

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    Lotto teams would never give up their pick for a role player. Contenders don’t have a high enough pick to get it done.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. elindholm

    elindholm rehabilitated

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    The "upper percentile" means the top 1%. By that standard, Warren is not one of the best.

    So you are saying that "one of the best" means "top 50." In that case it is clearer to say "top 50."
     

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